Episode 42: How to Make Sense Of Your Chronic Pain with Deb Malkin

In this episode, Deb and I talk about repressed emotions and how they relate to physical pain. Deb Malkin is a feminist mind/body coach, specializing in using the tools of neuro + bioplasticity and consciously curious hypno-coaching to help people unlearn pain and emotional stress symptoms. As a queer, fat, radically unapologetic human with their own unique mind and body, Deb joyfully works with everyone. They bring an awareness of how the intersections of social conditioning, family narratives, and biopsychosocial determinants of health (racism, sexism, stigma...) impact our felt sense of wellness/wholeness/self-worth + love.

Find Deb here:
https://www.thecuriositycure.coach/
https://www.instagram.com/curiositycure.coach/
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-curiosity-cure-mindbody-wellness-formerly-move/id1595415545

Find Sara here:
https://sarafisk.coach
https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/
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https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333
https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach
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Transcript

sara bybee fisk: 0:51

You are listening to the X Good Girl podcast, episode 42. I have Deb Malkin with me today. And to know Deb is to love her, to know Deb's hair and sweaters and style and funny online memes, uh, is to love her for sure. And Deb and I. I've been having an interesting conversation kind of in some installments as we have, you know, message each other online. And Deb did some really beautiful peer coaching with me a little while back. And I wanted to have this conversation today because so many of the women who identify as good girls, ex good girls, you know, wanting to kind of break free of people, And codependency and perfectionism that part of it is clear to them. But what isn't clear is this connection to some chronic pain that so many of them bring up chronic pain in their hips, chronic pain in their neck, in their back. Um, IBS autoimmune things that are just seem to be so common when I ask people. In webinars and in small groups to raise their hand, if they're dealing with some kind of chronic pain, it is all but just a few hands that go up every single time. And Deb, that's your specialty, right? Yeah. And I'm, there's a, uh, I mean, there's so many. When I have so much compassion for anybody dealing with chronic pain, it is the worst. Um, it is the worst experience. So we start there, which is your pain is real. Um, and like anybody doing mind body work or pain recovery work or things like that, both like as coaches or all the way through physicians, like think what's important first for people to understand is the pain that you are experiencing is real. And then kind of, and then where we go from there is that like, all pain is created in the brain. As a response or an opinion of kind of what is happening and sometimes when I tell people that they. You know, they start to think like, Oh no, my pain is my fault. And it's not anybody's fault. It's not like you did this to yourself on purpose. It's just our body's way of letting us know that it needs our attention. So just like when you put your hand over a hot stove, your body feels pain, which is a, which is like a message to pull your hand away. Like you don't get the pain after you've burnt your hand, you get the pain before you burn your hand. It says move. And a lot of times where this kind of overlaps into chronic pain and mind bodies. Symptoms and emotions is that oftentimes there's this conflict between our internal self, like our desire to move, to talk, to say, to respond, to fight, to flee, any of these things. And then the repression of that, the suppression of that. And then the body is like, um, hello. There's something that I want and need from you. And when kind of chronic pain is medicalized, oftentimes then the treatment kind of just goes only down this medical route. And then we just start to kind of. You know, of course, we label our symptoms as certain, uh, diseases and things like that. And then this part, this mind body piece gets kind of lost and forgotten. And I think what we're discovering now is. Um, that it's kind of coming back into consciousness. This work started, you know, I mean, I think it started before Dr Sarno, but he'd certainly popularized it. He certainly created, um, huge changes in people's lives through his, I mean, his treatment plan was read his book and come to his lectures and he was a physiatrist. He was a physician. Um, and this is how he treated people's Chronic pain, which is fascinating. And then since that time, there have been, um, other doctors and there's a recent boulder back pain study. So there's now kind of more work and I can mention other names and books and resources that are all about looking at. Kind of both how emotional pain and physical pain and the way the brain works, how it all goes in together to create our lived experience of what is happening in our bodies. And, um, and then I will say for women, oftentimes, um, women's pain is ignored and minimized, um, by everyone, by family structures and by the medical institutions. And so, you know, part of doing mind body work is also ruling out. Larger physical issues, but at the same time, we always have some control over the volume dial on pain. There's so many things in there that I want to jump into. I was just making absolutely, um, thank you for stopping some, some notes. Well, and that, and, uh, that's one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you is because you have done so much. Work here and so much study and I, um, I don't think it is like, I, I'm 50 and just turned 50 this year and I don't think it really came into my consciousness is like, oh, this. Stomach ache that I feel every time I am going to do something that I know will disappoint my parents. Like, oh, that's I don't need Tums or I don't need Pepto Bismol. I need to deal with my fear. Of disappointing. Yeah. I don't like, like that's, that's the simplicity with which I think I'm still understanding some of these things. Like when you talk about repressed emotions, what are some of the ways that some of the most common ways that you have found repressed emotions show up as pain or sensations in the body? Um, so I mean, anger certainly. Is a big one, uh, Dr Sarno really talked about how back pain and anger are related. And um, so when we, you know, if you think about something that makes you feel angry, if you just like hang out with it and let it build, you'll feel something in your body. Yeah. Yeah. It's like not that big of a leap. I just worked with a client, um, last week and one of the things, you know, she was, uh, upset with somebody at work and you know, she doesn't. She doesn't want to yell at somebody at work or actually she doesn't even, we were talking about like kind of not feeling like she was allowed to be angry at this person. And I said, well, right here, we're allowed to be angry. So let's just like give that anger some room. And we did a little mind body work and, and that anger was like, got to be embodied, turned into a fire breathing dragon. Some of my work is very kind of, uh, we get to go into our imagination when we're working on processing emotions. And what was so beautiful about that was there was this place to have permission to feel angry. And I feel like a lot of people and. Especially women don't get that and what we've noticed and in this work is, you know, after she was allowed to feel that anger, it actually passed pretty quickly. Um, which, you know, is the paradox because, you know, that's the goal, but then. The real work is to be and allow the emotional experience that you're having and creating it, creating safety to feel anger, which, you know, is pretty powerful. I think when we learn all about emotions from our caregivers, from the environment with which we were raised and as little people, anger is. Is can be really terrifying. And if we don't have that modeled to us in really healthy ways, we're never taught how to, you know, have this emotion in a way that feels safe. So, yeah. Yeah. Sorry. That's no, no, no. That's such a beautiful point because I think what you're saying, Is actually two things like number one, we have the normal human emotion of anger. And then there's just what do you do with a normal human emotion? And then if you are taught by, you know, the second thing is if you are taught that that is actually not. Acceptable. If the rule in your community, house, parent, you know, parent, child, whatever, is that you can't get angry. You have to do something else with that normal human emotion because it's not just going away. And it often gets internalized and you know, there's definitely socialization plays into that. You know, boys are allowed to do things with their bodies that help them discharge emotions and, you know, that same, those same kind of behaviors are like discouraged. And girls and, you know, definitely I'm 54 so also like socialization around gender is different was different, you know, when I was growing up than it is now, but still there are these ways, these little bodies that need. Ways to like process the experiences that are happening inside of them and that is often controlled and, um, discouraged by the, by the adults. And so, yeah, then we kind of carry that forward in our life. And, you know. Belonging and attachment and feeling like people like you, you know, so much of that is based on our perception of safety. Right. Um, and so, you know, we will self abandon be oftentimes before we, you know, actually like feel safe enough to express an emotion. And so, yeah, it's got to go somewhere. So we often feel it in our bodies. Well, and then if we feel it in our bodies and feel it and ignore it and stuff it and don't respond to it, then that's when the body in places is like, listen, we can't do this anymore. So now I have, you're making me remember. I listened to an episode of the Huberman lab podcast and he was interviewing Dr. Sarah Gottfried, who's a female hormone. Specialist. And she was talking about how something like more than 70 percent of women are constipated. They're chronically constipated. And Dr. Huberman, I don't think he knew what he was walking into, but he said, that is so high. Why do you think that is? And she didn't miss a beat. And she said, rage, resentment, like just carrying it in our bodies. It shows up as this. As this physical symptom that we don't we are not taught a is a normal human emotion and be it is safe. To express that and let that out. Yeah. And this is where kind of the, the newer understanding of the mind body relationship through like polyvagal theory comes in because, um, and, and what we know about the nervous system is for the body to be able to digest food, right? That's like a muscular mechanical process. And, uh, the, your body needs to be safe to do that because if you're in a heightened stress response, your body is using all of its resources to, um, for your survival. So that means, uh, your digestion system, which is part of your parasympathetic nervous system is not getting all of its. Energy that it needs to digest your food and that also just that affects that whole thing. There's a stomach, their intestines, like there's a whole universe that happens inside of there, not even to mention like the enteric nervous system. And so our relationship between our emotions. It's not just like what we're eating. This is like, oftentimes where I get so enraged by like diet culture is like, we're so fixated on like what it is that we're putting in our bodies. And we're not even talking about like how our bodies work. Um, and the role of emotions in terms of like being able to have enough safety for our bodies to work properly. Well, There's, you know, there's all of these words now that I just don't think existed before, like, like functional freeze, right? Like somebody who is in a kind of a chronically frozen nervous system state, because they're always worried that someone's going to be mad at them, that they've messed something up, that the sky's about to fall in, that they are not enough, not doing enough, not being enough, but yet they, They're not frozen to the point where they can't get out of bed in the morning. They're able to move through their life. And I think what you're saying is. We, we spend so much time on what women's bodies should look like, and the, these beauty standards that were decided by men in boardrooms somewhere, right. That, and then a bunch of products marketed to us to achieve those that we don't understand the relationship between the systems of our bodies. And you and I were talking a little bit about this before we started, but I. Western medicine, I think, has had a profound effect on the way I think about there's the digestive system. There's the, this system, the, this system, but it's, it's all one thing. And you mentioned, you know, the polyvagal theory, would you please just define polyvagal theory for people who might be hearing that for the first time? Sure. So, um, and I'm probably not gonna, I didn't. Preparer so well for this. So I'm probably so like, please feel free to use Google. But, um, uh, Dr. Steven Porges kind of mapped out on the actual, on our nervous system, the cranial nerve of the vagus nerve. And so it is a nerve that goes from your brain all the way down. And it, it goes to, I think your pelvis. Uh, it doesn't go all the way down to your toes, I don't believe, but what he was really able to see was how it responded to our emotions, to the world around us and how it related to different organs and systems in the body. And so to me, that is like the physiological relationship between the mind and the body. Yeah. It's literally the, the nerve highway that it, it is in your diaphragm, it is in your, you know, all of your, uh, uh, esophagus, your gut, your, um, and it, I think, you know, we were talking before we started that it is the way that the brain sends. Pain messages up and down the body and messages about, are we safe? Are we okay? Are we nervous? Are we scared? All of that information travels along the vagus nerve and into the different parts of the body. And so the theory is that it's not just a separate nervous system and a digestive system and a breathing system. Everything is informed. By the emotional state of the body. Yeah. And, and our emotions are not just the things that we can like that we can name on an emotion wheel, although I love an emotion wheel, um, they're often like these subconscious perceptions of safety or threat, they kind of happen without our. Right? It's like our body's response to what's happening around us before we have a thinking response. Yes. Sometimes I like to think of it as like if you're watching Friends. Um, but it had the soundtrack to Jaws, uh, you wouldn't, it would feel weird. You would be like, this is strange because Jaws is a very like haunting soundtrack. Right. And, um, so you wouldn't just be laughing, like you would be, your whole body would be responding to the sounds of the, you know, of the soundtrack. And so that's kind of, our body is always like. Our, our nervous system and our brain's role is to keep us safe, to help us survive. And so it is always perceiving the world around us, feeding that information to our brain. And our brain is the one deciding what to do. Yeah. What has to happen. And so when we talk about pain being a, like an opinion of the brain, it is this kind of threat assessment. And so. We all know what it's like when we are afraid to say something and, and just, if you slow it down, when you notice that experience, you'll just be able to see where you feel that in your body. It feel, you feel it. It's not just an idea in your head. And so, yeah. So. Yeah. So. Yeah. And that's kind of where this work is so powerful because we are becoming able to become our own like self authority. Okay. That's what I really want to dive into with you next, because you said something that I had never really considered before when you, when you talked about becoming the storyteller of your own pain and how that is tied. Not just with healing, but becoming the authority on what is happening for you instead of which is so common for so many, you know, people who are socialized as women having outside authorities telling you this is what's wrong with you. This is what you need. This is how you need to fix it. So, um, I have been having some hip pain, some tightness in my hip. And I wondered if you would just kind of take me through. Sure. A little mini experience with you about how to become the storyteller or more of the authority on that pain. Yeah. So first I would always start and just be like, did you injure yourself? Like did something happen? Right. We, we, right. There are all kinds of pain. Pain is a message from the body. And sometimes it says like, Hey, something's happening. Um, and you need some kind of care, right? And then we get to explore what that kind of care is. So, all right, when, um, when did you start to notice this hip pain? It got really intense about five in the last four years. Okay. Um, I've been working more, sitting more. It just feels like every time I get up, it's like if I could put a microphone in there, it would just. Creek and Okay. Moan. Hmm. All right. Which hip is this? Which side left? My left side. Left side, okay. Just really tight, really tense. Yeah. And when you get up, I'm curious, like, and you feel this creek and moan, what are the thoughts that you have? What are the things that pop up in your mind? It's like, uh, just like, uh, oh my gosh. That feels awful. Yeah. And do you notice if you're worrying about the future or worrying about what this means for you or are you thinking like, what am I doing wrong? No, I keep thinking sitting is the new smoking. Um, you know, I'm, that's, that, that, that's actually a big one. Like it's, this isn't good for me. This isn't good for my health. I should fix this. Why can't I fix this? And I get some like. Yeah. When do you, one thing I want to say is, you know, we're, we're very hyperbolic in this society and like sitting as the new smoking is not a useful frame. Like it, all it does is. You know, basically embed fear in your mind. And what I want to say is like, more like motion is lotion and movement is really good and nourishing, but to like create, right. So we're always want to work with fear. And when you have pain and your first thought is, Oh my God, I'm sitting too much. Like people have sat all through. The ages, as long as there have been people, we have been sitting and there are people who sit all the time who don't feel any pain. And so some of it is becoming a little bit critical or at least being able to like hear the messages that were delivered that sound so good and really get to know the underlying like fear behind it. And then at the next, the next point would be like, yeah, my body might be cueing me. to get up and move and walk around. Like it might be saying, Hey, I really need something from you. You know, just like we feel hunger or thirst or we have to pee, right? Like if your body didn't cue you now is the time to go to the bathroom. Like we would just be peeing, right? Like people who don't actually have any nerve sensations, like. Um, they don't have control over these parts in their body and they just like, things just happen. So our body, your body is talking to you and maybe it's saying like, Hey, you know, now it, right. It's all about kind of, um, load. So maybe it's saying like, I would like you to get up and walk around now. So I want to just introduce these ideas that your body might be talking to you, but when we then don't listen to it, when we like, don't go pee, when. We first hear that cue and certainly we're like entrained to not listen to our bodies, like in schools and all kinds of situations. Right. So it might be like feeling emboldened to stand up in a meeting, you know? So it's like, there's these little internal messages that are really useful to listen to. And as you get better at it, you'll hear them when they're quieter. Rather than them having to scream at you to be heard, I love the differentiation that you make between like, even just thinking about it as like, oh, this is just when my body tells me, hey, you need to pee. Like, I never think of that as like, anything other than. This biological physiological process needs to happen, same with food. Right. And so that is really helpful just to understand that it's a cue and not something has gone terribly wrong. Yes, it's so easy to just be like, Oh, my God, my body's gone wrong. And ageism, you know, plays into it. And like the older we get, we just are like, Oh, no, it's a slippery slope. We're going downhill. My body is failing me. Um, You know, and I hear people in their 30s talk this way, and I'm always just like, Oh, okay. And so it's like, those become these internal narratives. And when I talk about. Becoming a new storyteller, um, this is what I'm talking about and my pain recovery experience, my like radical overnight pain recovery experience happened when I was 50 and, uh, through this work, my knee pain went away overnight. And I was like, well, that is not supposed to happen because I'm 50 and I'm also like a fat person. And I've only ever been taught that like, you know, and I have osteoarthritis and I've only ever been taught like, no, this is degenerative. It only goes one way. And then once I had that experience, I was like, well, clearly everything I've ever been taught about pain, maybe it's wrong. And so that's, I think it's like really useful to start there and be like, if you don't believe that it can change, it's very hard to do this work. So at the very least, just like cracking open the belief that like this thing that I'm feeling right now is, um, can change. So let's actually, from that point, go back to your hip because I remember we took like a long way around. Yeah. Great. Um, yeah. So how's it feeling right now? Like tell, just like kind of sense into it. Sitting in my chair and it feels like I actually, I'm noticing that I actually try and lean off of it a little bit. Okay. Like if that's gonna, like babying it or, you know, trying to coddle it and I, I don't use those words. In a disparaging way at all, but it, it tells me that, that the story I'm telling myself is you need to watch out for that. You need to take special care of it. Like it can't handle all your weight. Okay. Yeah. And so if you and I were to work together. Over time, what we would be doing is dispelling that belief, is teaching your body that it is safe to have the weight distributed evenly and that, you know, while you're moving and walking, we would be creating and building those messages of safety and looking at what you just described is called a pain behavior. And those are ways that we subconsciously prime and train the brain that there's something dangerous happening. that there's something that is, um, to be avoided. And so let's actually just do a little somatic tracking right now. And somatic tracking is just a way of attending to any physical sensation with, uh, the lens of curiosity. And that becomes this kind of really baseline foundational piece of pain reprocessing, and you can do it for pain, you can do it for emotions, um, you can also do it for positive things, so it's not just aversive experiences, and for some people, like, Starting there with the thing that hurts is like way too much. So you can train in this skill by attending to things that feel good. Um, but since we're going to jump right in, we're going to attend to whatever it is that's happening in your hip right now. So maybe just like go back and invite your body to just sit in that chair and just really notice. What's happening? I noticed a tightness, almost like a weightedness on the left side. And if you were to describe that even more specifically, does it have a color or a shape to it? Nothing is coming to mind really readily. It feels almost like it's like tangled. Okay. Yeah. Tangled how? Tangled like if I, I'm shifting my weight in my chair back and forth, left to right, and it just feels like it's not tangled, like restricted. Like I can't, it's almost like, remember all the, the, Angle of, um, headset or air, air pods. What were they used to? Yeah. And so it's like, I'm pulling on it, trying to get it to move kind of back and forth. And it just, when I move it, it's like trying to extract your headphones by pulling on them. Right. And it just gets tighter and tighter and tighter. Yeah. So let's just see, what does it feel like to just get really curious and not try to change it at all? The very first thing that comes up is like. That's not an option because this has to be changed. Yeah. So, right. That is part of that kind of fear that is lurking inside of you that I can't, this has to change. There's a sense of urgency about it. There's only attending to it with this agenda of making it change. Right. So right now we're just going to practice attuning and just like befriending, just being really curious. And just letting it reveal itself or be witnessed without an agenda. And as I, I just pay attention to it, it feels actually like sadness. Okay. Yeah. So let's just. Or sadness, sadness comes up, I think around, I, I think that the thing that you named is like, I'm only looking at this hip as a problem that needs to be solved. Something that is in Um, my way, something that is, is, um, yeah, a problem to be solved and not sad. Yeah. Okay. So let's just be sad for a moment, just make room for sadness to be felt, giving that hip just permission to be as it is right now and just, and leaving the door open for change. That's different than like being in a place where this is not allowed to. Be here. I feel like an internal softening just to ever so slightly it's, it's actually, it feels exactly like when you stop pulling on those headphone cords, trying to untangle them and you just kind of set them down and they kind of just loosen a little bit all by themselves. Yeah. That's so interesting. Yeah. So now just like go in there and maybe explore around the hip. It's like, like you were a little tiny detective on the inside, like a really big magnifying glass, just exploring all of the edges and the boundaries, the things that you're feeling on the inside. Well, I actually felt myself just like sit up a little straighter and kind of less sunken down into that area. Yeah. What are you noticing now? The openness and kind of the relaxing. Is just present versus, I mean, I, I wouldn't say it feels fully relaxed, but if, you know, the tension that I was talking about before was like a, an eight, it's like a five, and it just feels. Open, I guess that open in a way that wasn't there before. That's the easiest way I can say that. Cool. It's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. And it almost makes me want to laugh because it's like, of course, if you're only looking at a part of your body and so many of us do, this is like, this is a problem, whether it's like a tight hip or a stomach that doesn't look like you think it should look or a hairline or a, you know, some, some other part of your body there's. I'm, I'm seeing right now with you just how powerful the stories we tell about our bodies are. Yeah. And when we're, we, we're often not aware of them, but we're certainly like subconsciously aware of them. Oh yeah. So part of it is to just slow down. And attend and attune to this part and just get really, really curious and sometimes yeah, we're going to have feelings come up like my. Uh, my recovery story and I've had, uh, you know, like I'm still a human being, I still have pain that comes and goes, but I don't think of it as chronic. Um, so when I had this experience taking my knee for a walk, basically, um, my knee was like, I don't trust you. Like it was loud. It was like, and I was like, oh. Okay. And I just decided, you know, I was walking and what I kept telling my knee was like, I'm going to create as much safety as I need to, for you to trust me. And like, I hear you. And then slowly, cause I was in this like kind of biomechanics training. So I was very much trying to like manipulate my body to like fit this pre designated form, which is. Kind of like that sitting is the new smoking thing, which is like, there's like a right way that our muscles and bones and things should be aligned when, you know, I think human bodies have a lot of variation. There's not a right way. And I think like we can kind of overemphasize things like posture and overemphasize things like biomechanics and not understanding this nervous system piece that there is a self inside that is. Either experiencing, you know, safety or threat and, you know, it's along the spectrum, of course, and, um, pain is often this response just to communication. So, yeah, that's, that was what happened and then, like, by the end of the day, I was experiencing, like, 80 percent less pain and then the next morning, I had, like, 95 percent less pain and I had been waking up. With a lot of pain and like hobbling to the bathroom and things like that, thinking, oh, I'm going to need a knee replacement and, and all of that stuff. And I was like, it was fascinating, but my knee was very loud and opinionated had a lot to say, and I was like, oh, okay, I'm going to listen. It did. It made me feel sad, but it was the beginning of a new relationship with my body and a new relationship with understanding kind of. Yeah. Pain as a part of, uh, communication. Well, I've loved this conversation for so many reasons, but what I think, like, I'm just feeling my hip now and it, it just, it feels. Relaxed, like I've put down the well and here's what's so interesting is even when I get up, I start twisting and stretching and, and, and the message is like, we've got to fix this. Yeah. And even just dropping that for just a minute, what I feel like saying actually right now is you know what? Thank you for like, that is such a huge, hugely supportive part of my body and to thank my hip for being this support structure. And if I think about how I've rewarded it, right, it's with this. You're a problem. We need to fix you and just dropping that is such an important thing and like you can bring love To this part of you. So a good thing right now is to imagine so not doing it But imagine standing up, you know Imagine getting out of your chair and standing up without all the twisting and fixing but just with a love and a tuning and then Um, you know, taking that first step and it might take your brain a little while to be like, Oh yeah, we don't have to do all this stuff, but it's like, even if you feel something when you stand up knowing, like it'll pass after the first few steps and just teaching your brain that sense of safety. So just imagine that for a moment is standing. Yeah. That, that. Okay. Now I'm actually going to stand up. Yeah. Okay. Right here at my desk. Yeah. And I'm not stretching or twisting or, but it feels like the openness. actually kind of spreads a little bit to like my whole, uh, what's the name of that? Your sacrum? Yeah. Sacrum, the whole kind of sacral area back there. Well, Deb, this has been so beautiful and so simple. And I think it's kind of right at my level where I'm just kind of beginning to dive into like, how do you actually heal so many of these, these Pain signals that we call chronic, but that actually isn't always helpful. And I just so appreciate you being willing to take me through that, that exercise, I hope that if you're listening to this, that something, you know, that you are able to take something away, if only that sometimes the way we talk about our bodies, we've been taught to talk that way. This is a problem sitting as the new smoking, you know, You shouldn't be doing it this way and part of reclaiming an inner authority is to question those outside authoritative voices that we've just kind of been swimming in for so long and see if even just that can provide some relief fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. If people want to find out more about you and working with you, where can they go and do that? Yeah. So, um, my website, the curiosity cure. coach, uh, I also have a podcast called the curiosity cure where I lead people through understanding the relationship of the mind and the body and the brain and the nervous system and how we can use neuroplasticity to rewire our unpleasant physical sensations. It's physical and emotional, right? So that we can, I like to say, feel more better in the body that we have today. And you know, and that's going to mean different things for different people. But feeling better, I think is really possible for everybody, no matter what's happening. Wow. That's beautiful. And I love the work you do. And thank you so much for being here today. You're welcome. It was my pleasure. Thank you.