Episode 45: How Claiming Authority Changed Everything for Me: A Conversation with Kara Loewentheil

My mentor, teacher, friend, and colleague joined me to talk about how claiming authority changed everything for us. Kara Loewentheil, J.D., is a Master certified coach, host of the top-rated podcast UnF*ck Your Brain, and creator of The Clutch, a feminist monthly coaching program that has helped tens of thousands of women across the world liberate themselves from the inside out. 

Women are conditioned to believe power and authority are negative. We notice power and authority if it’s being used against us or being used to do harm, but it can be used to do good as well. Women are socialized from the beginning to believe that power and authority are not for us. We’re here to tell you that it is possible to claim your authority. It takes breaking down the walls society built around us and knowing we have the power to live our full truth. Can’t wait for you to listen.

Find Kara here:
https://unfuckyourbrain.com
https://www.instagram.com/karaloewentheil
https://www.facebook.com/karaloewentheil

Find Sara here:
https://sarafisk.coach
https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/
https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/
https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333
https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach
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Transcript

0:51

You are listening to the ex good girl podcast, episode 45. I have been looking forward to this for a very long time, because it took that long to get on your calendar, uh, months. This, I have Kara Lowenthal, my mentor, teacher, friend, colleague, uh, with me today to have a conversation about authority, because I really think it all started with you in that living room in New York so many years ago. Um, I started following you and you scared the crap out of me, which I think is, is that, is it fair to say that that's a pretty common? It's not an uncommon reaction. We can say that. I don't know if it's common, but it's not uncommon. Well, tell us who you are and why, why we should be terrified of you. Why I'm scary. Uh, my name is Kara Lowenthal. As you said, and pronounced correctly, which I appreciate, uh, I am a, what am I? I am a master coach and a coach instructor. I, uh, am the host of the un fuck your brain podcast, which is, um, which is a podcast that teaches you how to un fuck your brain. I'm the author of Take Back Your Brain, which is coming out in May, 2024. Um, and. I teach women how to identify the ways in which society has taught them to think about themselves and how to change those thoughts. So I bring a kind of third leg to the stool of coaching, which previously kind of focused on evolutionary psychology and, um, your family of origin as talk therapy does, but was missing this lens of what does society. Due to us, how does society shape our minds? And that is really what my work over the last 10 years has been all about. And why people are scared of me. I don't know. I mean, I think, you know, it's just resting New York face, I guess. And, you know, I talk a lot with my hands. I don't know. People have always told me I'm intimidating and I don't feel that way, but apparently other people do. Well, luckily I got over it because I started listening to unfuck your brain and picking up my jaw off the floor multiple times. I mean, just for some context and, and you know, I think, you know, some of my history, but I came of age, um, in the Mormon church when a very prominent church leader said that the threats to like the true gospel were feminists, homosexuals and intellectuals. Oh, that's a new one. I would have guessed the first two, but I didn't know that they were literally like smart people. We don't like that here. We don't want you thinking too much because that really threatens this thing that we're building. And so, um, yeah, feminism was a It was something you did not want to be. And So I, I think that I approached your work with a little bit of like hesitation, because although I had been coaching and wanted to, uh, become a coach who had a business and develop myself as a coach, I still think I had some real hangups with like, am I a feminist? Do I, what is a feminist? Do you find that that's common for people who discover your work? Yeah, I mean, I think one of the beautiful things about, um, this type of work and like what I'm teaching is that it really can, um, it crosses a broad range. There are definitely people who come to me who are like, like, I both get people whose feeling is, you know, I am a feminist. And so all this other coaching stuff has like turned me off because it feels like. Uh, whatever. It's like people are trying to coach me, like, conform to society's expectations, basically. Like, they coach, like, lose weight and find a husband and blah, blah, blah, and be a perfect mom. And it's like, so there's some of, you know, there's people who sort of are not open to other forms of coaching because they're not feminists. But then I also get, I mean, the truth is, like, you don't have to agree with my political positions or anyone's political positions in order to benefit from the work. Like, the way I talk about it is that there's a difference between feminism as a philosophy and feminism as a political movement. And feminism as a political movement is, you know, what does, what do the national NGOs in the American feminist movement decide to have as their policy positions? Like, we can all argue about that. And. People who are in those organizations argue about that, much less people outside of them. So like that's political feminism, but feminism as a philosophy. Is really just the belief that women are humans, but the women are actual full people with full interior lives who are just as meaningful and worthy and important as men. And that sounds silly when you say it like that, but if you look at what women are taught. Implicitly through socialization, through the messages we get from society, it's the opposite. We're taught that we're an object to be desired or a, you know, donkey to be of service or like whatever else. So the donkey is a strong term, but like a, a, you know, a beast of burden. So to me, this work is really for just anybody who wants to understand how what they've learned from society about being a woman is shaping their brain. And that doesn't mean that you give it all up. Like Most people are not watching the video of this, but like I have my hair curled and I'm wearing lipstick. Like, this is not really about your gender identity or your gender presentation. It's really about understanding at what a deep level social messages about women's value and women's worth does to your brain. And most women have, or people socialize as women have no idea that the anxiety, the guilt, the shame, the stress, the chronic health stuff, like all these things they experience on a daily basis. Um, and I think, I mean, not only did I not have any idea, but I think I had to just get over the, the messaging that being a feminist would require me to be angry and up in arms about lots of different things. So I appreciate the differentiation between feminism as a philosophy versus, uh, uh, a political movement. I live with a man. Like, I don't live in a separatist commune in the woods where we don't let people with, you know, where we don't let men in. Like, it's not about agreeing with feminism's political choices, which also differ in different countries and different regions. It's about the philosophy of. Are you as important as a man? Like you want to say yes to that, but do you consider your own happiness as important as the happiness of other people in your life? Do you consider how you want to feel in your body or when you're hungry or how your body naturally is as important as making your body look a certain way? Like, All of the when you start asking those questions, it turns out that we don't think that we are as important as everybody else. And that is what I'm talking about when I talk about feminism. Yeah, and I just think it's so interesting, you know, you have this long history with involvement in the philosophy of feminism, everything from, you know, your upbringing to your The work you did before you became a coach and the politics of feminism. I mean, I was, you know, I was active in the, in the American political feminist movement too. Yeah. And then here I come in with not only no feminist training, but an aversion to anything that had, you know, the feminist label on it and, and actually being taught that a type of virtue signaling within my, you know, Mormon religious upbringing was to not. Be feminist to actually be highly in favor and show my wrapped, uh, approval of gender roles, of, of, you know, deference to men being an authority. And so I don't think it's, you know, overstating it to say that when I kind of came into what you podcast, it was with a fair amount of like, I. I don't know what this is going to do to me. I don't, I don't know. And, and I, I think that mirrors a lot of the women who come into my world now and they're like, I don't know what's going to happen to me if I stop people pleasing. Yeah. What will I become this selfish bitchy self absorbed, you know, woman who doesn't care about anyone but herself anymore. And so the extremes that were kind of taught. The extremes that are held out as like the cautionary tale socialization right there, right? It's like a woman who ever puts herself first is obviously a narcissistic sociopath. And we have to be very worried that that might happen to us. Yeah. Yeah. Like, and this is the same thing with confidence. It's like, but if I ever say a nice thing to myself, I will become completely arrogant, deaf to all feedback and trample on everyone around me. It's like, well, I don't know. There's like a pretty big range actually in between those. Well, I have always appreciated your ability. To point out that range and to say, like, okay, I know that, you know, becoming the narcissistic bitch who tramples all over everybody. I mean, yeah, maybe that is possible, but there's a whole lot in between. And what I appreciated about you as my mentor and teacher at that time was your willingness to kind of step me pretty deep. Gently into, well, what if, what is, let's, let's kind of look at all of that space that is between these two extremes that you've been taught. These are the only two things that exist and it did kind of come down to that living room coaching session with you in New York where what it all hinged on for me was really Authority. Yeah. We should also clarify for everybody. I don't do one on one coaching in my living room. This was called, like, people are going to be emailing me, like, how do I get that? This was the living room retreat. It was called as a small high end coaching. Good catch. Good catch. You don't want people knocking on your front door. Of the penthouse of the Greenwich Hotel in New York. Yes. But yeah, but I think that it's a perfect example, right? You were, you're, you basically felt like the two op, your thoughts were that the two options were I don't take any power and authority or I become like a dictator who hurts people. Yeah. Those were sort of in your mind, the two options. Yeah. Well, and I think it's significant. To point out to that the type of, you know, coaching that both of us practice, you know, thought work, the thought that I had was that people in authority hurt other people. So you're like, I don't want any of that. And that's the only way people can be an authority, right? That is what authority means. And I think that's a, I mean, That's a mis, there's a way in which like we notice power and authority most if it is being used against us or it is being used to do harm, we don't really notice it when it's being used to do good in some ways, I think, so it makes sense and I don't think you're the, you know, you're not the only person who had that thought. I also think women are socialized from the big, sometimes there's deep socialization and then we just come up with like a cover thought for it. Like women are socialized from the beginning to believe that power and authority is not for them. Right? Like we are not, you know, we're not the experts. We're not in charge. If we are in charge, we don't know what we're doing, or we might be too emotional or whatever else. And so I think there's almost some cognitive dissonance that goes on where we have this deep programming of like, okay, power and authority and leadership. Those are not for me. And then we come up with some other reason why, like, because everybody in a power is bad or harmful or. Whatever else it's like, there's some cover story. It's like when people don't believe they can make money and what they tell you is, well, I don't want to make money because money makes you a bad person. And then it like turns out that, well, that's more of a cover story for, I don't believe I can. Um, but I think that a lot of women have had, you know, negative experiences with power structures, whether, you know, even if they're not in a high demand religion, just in the institutions they're part of in schools, in their families, in romantic relationships, and so, you know. I think that's common, and one of the things I always say is like, look at who does the, like, who does the cliché benefit? Right. It's like the men in power are always like, Oh, being power, having power is bad. That's powerful. Power and authority makes you hurt people. It's like, okay, but you have it though. And you like it. It's just, we're not supposed to have, right. It's like money too. It's like, yeah, no, no money corrupts you and makes you bad. I'm like, okay, but you people who have the money seem to like having it. You just don't think the rest of us should want it. Right. So it's like, who does the, how does your belief. Support the existing power structure and women believing that, you know, power and authority are only harmful keeps us from wanting any so true. And I think I was conditioned to believe that it was, it was a burden, like, Oh, having all this authority. It's really tough to be the man in charge of making the decisions. It's just, it's such a, it's such a mantle of responsibility mantle of responsibility. If I, yeah. Had a nickel for every time man delivers one, right? It just, it became this like, Oh, we don't want that because it's so hard. So hard to bear that. I'm just trying to protect you from having, right. I mean, that's such a classic, like, that's just like men though telling women, like, listen, voting would be so stressful. You'd have to, you know, learn about all the candidates and like, worry your pretty little head about it. So like, don't worry, we're going to protect you from it. Which it seems so. Ridiculous. That's what people used to say. You could find that in the newspaper. Like that was a common thing. But if you, if you grow up with that as the narrative, with that as just the kind of soup that you're cooked in, it just, it makes so much sense. And you're like, yeah, why would I want to be in a position of authority making decisions? That just seems really, really hard. And the same way that they're socialized to think that they're bad at making decisions. Yeah. Anything. Right. Anything, you know, we're flighty. We can't decide we're indecisive, you know, like these are the stereotypes about women. For sure. Um, I listened to a podcast episode of yours that, uh, you, when you talk about authority and claiming authority, and this, this quote seemed very, very, very true for me. And it's this, I'm going to quote you to you, and then I'm going to ask you for your thoughts on it. I stand by it, but let's see what I said. The most important thought work you can do is to work on claiming your own authority over your own life. Everything else flows from that. Okay. Thanks. Yeah, I think that is true. I mean, I think that's kind of, you know, I've written this book, Take Back Your Brain, and I think that that's really the purpose of the book. Like, the book doesn't have authority in the title, but believing that you can have a say in, like, the course of your life and what happens to you, I think, is something that men are socialized to believe. Men are socialized to believe that they're, like, kind of, you know, active actors in their own life who are going to shape it, and women are socialized to kind of, like, Wait for things to happen to them, like wait to be chosen, wait to be recognized, wait to be loved, wait to be promoted, like all of that. And so I think that, you know, that switch from seeing yourself as essentially a person that like life happens to, to becoming somebody who creates their own life is the core of the point of thought work for me. And that's something that, um, in the book, like I, there's a, the way that the book is structured. Is designed to teach women how to do that in a kind of, you know, one, like without being directly coached, teaching them how to coach themselves, because I talk about, you know, first, the first part of the, the first kind of half of the book is about just how your brain works, the science of it. So you can understand how to, um, Deal with your emotions, which I know we're going to talk about in a minute, because that's a big piece of this too, and how to identify and change your thinking. And then the second half of the book is chapters on different areas that women really struggle with claiming authority over, like their, I mean, think about body image, right? Like women, we don't. believe that we have authority over, like, what are we supposed to look like? Or what is our body for? Or who are we going to have sex with and when? Or anything else, right? We're, instead, absorb constant socialization about, like, what we're supposed to look like and what we're supposed to weigh and what our skin should look like and what our hair should look like and what outfits are flattering or not flattering and, like, what, how to attract a man, which, who gives a fuck? I mean, I shouldn't say that. We all do on some level because we've been socialized to, but there's nothing, it's not inherently natural that we have to, um, and then, I mean, if you, like, think about all the shit that women are told, they can't possibly figure out for themselves, like what to eat, when to eat, how much to eat, how to know when they're full, how to know if they're hungry, how to move their bodies, how to not move, like, you know, I, you know, we're just systematically taught that we basically have no idea how to even exist. And so each of the kind of, in the second half of the book, each chapter goes into a different area and teaches you, you know, sort of shows you all that programming you're not aware of and teaches you how to really claim authority, even though that's not the term in the book, but how to claim authority and change your thoughts over that area of your life. Because if you listen to popular culture, women, we basically can't even get out the door without like somebody. You know, chaperoning us around and telling us how to dress for the weather. And like, you know, what haircut's okay to have. I think that the point that I understood really clearly from you and from, you know, thought work in general is that what we fear in making our own decisions and taking authority and learning to trust ourselves is how we will treat ourselves. If we determine at some future point that we made a quote unquote mistake or did it wrong or something doesn't turn out the way we wanted it to. And the reason I bring this up is because I think that was the source of the anxiety that I was feeling, which. Interestingly enough, you identify, I didn't even know it was anxiety until we were sitting there and I'm, we're having this conversation about authority and you're telling me, you know, you can decide what happens your life. I'm like, I'm noticing this clenching in my chest, this, and you're like, I think that's anxiety. And. As interestingly simple as that sounds. I did not know that. Yeah. And it was building in my body as I was thinking about, Oh, my gosh, but what if I what if I do it wrong? What if I do what she says? And I decide what's going to happen in my life. And I fuck it up. I mess it up. I make wrong decisions. Yeah, well, also the way we define the decision usually is I'll know it's the right decision if my brain ever questions it and I never feel bad again, which is a pretty high bar for a decision, probably not going to happen. So we don't even know really how we're defining if the decision is wrong or right, but we also are taking way too much responsibility for the outcomes of decisions, right? So I think this is also it goes to part of the core kind of thing that I. The core metaphor I use sometimes to describe how women's, um, self worth works is that women are taught that their self worth or their value is basically like the stock market. It like goes up and down depending on whatever, like who they pass on the street and what they say, and if they made a mistake at work and if their kid likes them that day or not, or whatever else, right? It's like up and down, up and down, up and down, up and down. And Given that, right, when we think about a decision is so terrifying because it requires us to do something with an uncertain outcome, right? And we are basically telling ourselves, if anything negative at all happens that could in any way be attributed to this decision. Then I am a bad person who did it wrong, and I'm going to feel ashamed. I'm going to punch myself in the face if anything goes wrong. And I think also there's socialization there that like women are blamed for anything bad that happens that a woman was at all even ancillary to. It's like her fault, right? If you get sexually assaulted, it's because you're asking for it. Or how are you dressed? Or were you flirting or whatever else, right? If you got robbed, of course, it's going to be like, Did you leave the door open? Why do you live in this neighborhood? Why didn't you have an alarm? Why don't you have a husband to protect you? Why don't like, no matter what a woman does, like any, it's like anything negative that befalls a woman is somehow her fault. If you get kicked out of the garden of Eden, it's because you fucked it up. Yeah, right. If a manic, if something bad happens to a man, it was probably a woman as well. Right. So. With that kind of socialization, of course, we're terrified to make decisions and take responsibility for them because women are socialized in a way that like systematically alienates them from themselves, right? So we, we don't have a relationship with ourselves where we can have our own back when we make a mistake or love ourselves. Even if we're not perfect, we don't have that unless we use coaching to create it, unless we change our thoughts. So, I mean, that kind of, you know, the fear of responsibility is such a, um, is just really drilled into women that if they ever, you know, if you ever, I mean, think about all the, like, white men who have like driven companies into the ground and then gotten venture funding for their next one, right? And that is not the same for women most of the time. Not at all. I love systematically alienate them from themselves because if you could encapsulate kind of my My experience. Joining you for the next thing you offered, which was a certification in feminist coaching. That's, I felt like it was a reunion with myself and also a laundry list of all of the ways that systems had alienated me from me. Mm hmm. And that's not at all what I was expecting. I think I've shared this with you before and we've had a laugh that I was coming in to, to the certification, like literally prepared to answer questions about like feminist theory and the history of, you know, you thought you were getting quizzes on like, yes. Who was the Greek philosopher who wrote X. Yes, but instead it was an immersion in this is how the systems have been created to teach you that you can't be trusted to teach you that you need outside validation to teach you to continually be an imposter in your own life because you're constantly worried about somebody finding out quote unquote that you really don't know what you're doing. All of this, like outsourcing decisions and overthinking and perfectionism and people pleasing. Like, you think it's just how you are, but you have been taught to be this way in these very specific ways by these very specific systems. And I had such an eruption of rage that That I think for weeks, I just walked around like so angry that I hadn't seen it before, but then also, how can you see something you're taught not to see? But for me in particular, it was like Mormonism and Christianity had taken patriarchy and just put it in God's mouth. And now it's God who wants these gender roles for you. And it's God who wants these, you know, very specific systems and ways of doing things where men just always happen to be in charge. It was such, um, you know, when I say I'm a born again feminist, tongue in cheek, I say that because it is, that's what I, what I feel like happened. And I just wondered about your reflections on that. Well, I think one of the things I really loved about writing the book was that as an opportunity to bring in some of what I used to teach and that. That advanced certification, which has been retired in its current form. But part of what I really liked about that work was having more space for like the historical and social context and kind of teaching some of that history. And so what was really fun about the book was an opportunity to kind of marry these two things. Like I think the advanced certification was really heavy in that history and context. And like a lot of it was sort of just. showing people where all this came from and then they could apply it in their own, you know, coaching as professionals. And then my work inside, um, the Feminist Self Help Society, which is my coaching program, is really very concrete and like focused on how to change your thoughts. And the book is really a place to marry those two things and be able to, pun intended, and be able to talk about, you know, here's the, here's like a streamlined version of this history that you need to. Understand in order to see the systems and also see here's the concrete ways you can actually change your thinking because the recent, you know, number one, there's something wrong with a woman being angry, obviously, but also I think that they're, you know, the stereotype of angry feminists is both. It's sort of, it's like not complicated to talk about. It's just, there's two levels to this. Like, One level, of course, is that society doesn't like women to be angry. So anytime a woman's angry, it's like, Oh, now it's your whole personality. And now it's a huge problem. But also I do think that. You know, until there has been this gap in the feminist movement, which is part of what my book is trying to fill, which is that feminism is an enlightenment of like, Oh, this is what's been happening. And it has given women political goals to rally around, but it has not really paid as much attention. understandably, you know, to the internal experience. And I think we, we've reached a point now where there's still important external, obviously like policy and legal goals. I mean, we just had the constitutional right to abortion reversed in this country, but we're also seeing what happens when you make a bunch of progress on the social front in terms of, you know, Equal access to education and to at least initial employment. Obviously, there's still problems as you get higher up in some in a lot of industries, but you make some progress. Like, there's a lot of ways to go. There's no question that we have made progress since 100 years ago, but there we paid no attention to. the mental emotional experience that goes along with that. So I think what's so powerful about your story here also is like you get very angry and that's normal, but with coaching, you know how to come out of that and move forward in a way and not just get stuck. So that was really also important to me in the book is like, it's not just, okay, well now you're mad and bye. But here's how to both acknowledge and accept that anger and how to move it through your body, like, and there's no rush and you don't need to not be angry if you don't want to be. But if you do want to be able to sort of continue on without just feeling burned by resentment all the time, here's how you do that. Here's how you can actually, you know, I think part of the anger and resentment comes from if you, if you show someone what's wrong, And you show them the ways in which the deck may be stacked, but you don't empower them in terms of how to cope with that and how to create the life they want anyway, then you're leaving a lot of people stuck in resentment and burnout and anger. So, and I think that's where a lot of us, a lot of people who are feminists or who become feminist aware, I call it like feminist friendly, get stuck because they don't have the tools to get out of that. So, The book is really focused on both pieces of that, like you need both. I think one of the ways in which, um, working, you know, with you and then later for you and subsequent rounds of, of the certification changed my My, my coaching or my, my, my work as a professional is in recognizing the programming that women have to seek self help, right? That we are programmed to think that there is something wrong with us. We all have this kind of running list of all the things that we should be working on fixing, adjusting, you know, uh, and you mentioned some of them at the beginning of this podcast. You know, I should find a partner. I should lose weight. I should, you know, get a promotion. And. The ways in which that programming, um, shows up in the coaching, um, relationship. But I wonder if, um, you could speak to just how you have seen your coaching change or, or did it have to change? Did you start out as a coach who was like, no, I'm, this is a partnership. I am the expert, not the authority. Was it always that way? Or what did you see that kind of. Showed you how to emphasize that in your work. Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I want to speak to the 1st thing you said at 1st, because I think this is, um, it's true. Like, women are disproportionately the consumers of self help. Right? And I think there's like. Good and bad mixed in there. I think it is, like, I don't think the answer is, so nobody needs self help and self development, like men should be encouraged to pursue it, right? So I think the difference to me is, like, everybody needs it. Needs and benefits from learning how to handle being a human better. Being a human is just a hard thing. Like in every, you know, people, when people are like, what is life coach even do? I'm kind of like every society has had people whose job it is to try to teach other people how to be a human. Slightly more skillfully with slightly less suffering, like maybe it's Socrates wandering around with his philosophical, you know, followers, maybe it's the village elder, maybe it's the, the religious figure, maybe it's the midwife, maybe it's the whoever, but like every society has had people who's, you know, Occupation. It was sort of to try to teach you how to be a human in a way that's like a little less painful. So I think everybody needs that. Women, however, are sold it as there's something wrong with you. We need to fix, which is very different than, Hey, it's really hard to be a human. And here's some skills that can help you. Um, so I think the like. You know, I, I think that self development and self help is, is really practical philosophy for women, but it's really important that you're choosing, you know, when you're looking at the bookshelf, you're choosing a book that does acknowledge and appreciate your authority over your own life and is designed to empower you, right? That's the difference between like picking up my book and picking up a book. That's like how to get a husband in 60 days. That's like, are you talking to men about your opinions again? You should stop that. Do you have a list of things you want on a partner? You don't need all those. Just settle down. Okay. So that's my thing about self help and self development. Um, in terms of my approach to coaching, I mean, I do think that that it must have obviously has like evolved over time. Um, I really, I think that the first time that I taught the advanced certification, so I think we ended up doing four rounds in total, four years of it, three or four years of it. And. The first time I wrote it all down, I was sort of like, Oh yeah, there's like, this is just how I coach. And I had not really, you know, I didn't learn it from someone else. I mean, I learned how to coach someone else, but I didn't learn this feminist method of coaching from someone else. I really developed it as I went along. So it's a little hard to say, cause that was the first time that I actually got it all on paper and was like, Oh yeah, there's like a whole framework of way, way that I do this. Um, but I just, I think that. No, when I first learned to coach, I think it was more hierarchical or authority. You know, I mean, it was certainly like how I was taught, um, which was more like, uh, you know, you lead, I mean, I still lead a set when I'm coaching. I'm still trying to help lead us to where, you know, lead us somewhere. You're not just, it's supposed to be different than just talking to a peer, but I think it was taught more of a kind of like, this is the. This is how things are. And like you explain it to the client that this is how things work. But maybe it's not even true as I'm talking. I mean, I do think that my skills change, but I think that for me, one of the reasons that, um, one of the reasons that my coaching skills are so good is that I think a lot of people when they get certified, because they're afraid of authority, they don't ask questions. They don't kind of work through the parts that don't make sense to them. They're just kind of like, okay, well, I'm just gonna like learn what I was told and this person said it was true and blah, blah, blah. And when I went and got trained, you know, I had this big area of disagreement with, um, you know, both of our teacher with Brooke Castillo, which I've talked about on her podcast. So none of this is a secret. I just big area of disagreement with her that. She was at that time, like a life and weight loss coach. And I had learned about health at any size and had done work on my body image and didn't believe in teaching weight loss. And I think I, honestly, I think that that saved me like having a big disagreement right up front, not that we were fighting about it, but it was just that my perspective was never like, she's the guru. She knows everything. She, I have to like, believe everything she says, and I shouldn't question it and I shouldn't, whatever. So, you know, maybe I think that this is a long answer. I'm sorry, but I, I'm like thinking about it as you asked me, I think that I went in. More ready. To question and I think I had even though I did struggle with authority stuff because I had had a high powered career and I had got to Harvard I had gone to Yale I had some of the, you know, I did have insecurity but I also did think of myself as sort of a generally well educated person with a well functioning critical thinking skills so that was not an area I had insecurity about so I felt confident enough to. I mean, my whole professional programming had been like critique and idea. I was an academic before I went into coaching. So I think that I came in more ready and willing to critique the ideas. And this is how it relates to how I coached that required me to grapple with like really radical. subjectivity so early on that I do think my coaching always had a flavor of me being like, I don't even know if what I'm teaching you is right or true. I'm just telling you it helped me. Like, cause I really went all the way. I remember being at a mastermind, like an LCS mastermind and somebody was getting coached. I remember being like, well, do you think like, you know, we, we teach that the human mind is what creates meaning and something. Right. And so there was some examples like. Well, like, you know, do you like, is, you know, the person is basically like, I'm not telling the story well, but the person business stuff was like, listen, I know we say that it's all thoughts, but we all think that murder's bad in all circumstances. Right. Like they were just sort of like, we're all just pretending to think things are subjective. Right. And I was like, No, like I'm not pretending. I really, I don't think it is like, I think we decide human societies have had very different ideas about when it's okay to kill people. I have my own ideas, but I don't claim that they're objective. So I do think that from the beginning, maybe my coaching, I, you know, I'm sure I got more egalitarian. As I got more relaxed, but I do think from the very beginning, because I was willing to, I grappled with all the big hard questions before I started coaching. And I think that made me more willing to just be like, I don't even, I can't prove this is true when I'm teaching you. All I can tell you is here's how my life has changed by implementing it. You came and paid me. So I want to suggest you try it. But like, I think I always was a little more than your average coach, like. I don't know. You try, you try it, see what you think, like as opposed to in that convincing energy. Well, it's, it's been one of my favorite things about you and probably most transformational for me, um, kind of in, in your space. And as you're telling that story, what kind of dawns on me is I, I, I, I called it my, my secret heresy. Um, but I remember the day that, you know, this is still when I'm very Mormon, but I remember the exact chair, the exact place in my house. I had just been kind of noodling on this idea of how are gay people like if, how are gay people here? If the Bible says gay people are wrong, my church says gay people, no, you can't do that. And yet I have this brother in law who is gay. Why would anybody blow up their life to be gay in the Mormon church? That doesn't make sense. And I remember the moment I landed on like, Oh, I think they just come that way. I think it's not a choice. And if it's, and if they just came this way, then God is a part of it. And if God is a part of it, he, she, they, whatever must be okay with it. And just like having. A point of disagreement that obviously I didn't feel safe to talk about for many years after that. But once I started saying, guys, this just doesn't make sense. Like how, how can we believe in a God who is all loving? And of course it was in Mormon God language at that point, but it was that disagreement that I think was the, the little tiny sliver that became the wedge of like extricating me from a lot of just. Out of the box thinking programming that I had just kind of never questioned, because if, if I can come to my own idea of the truth on this thing, like what else is there? That was available. Like you claiming authority over your own belief system. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, I think any orthodoxy is, you know, I am like politically more progressive, more left, but I don't agree with the. You know, I'm kind of a, also the American left is a very specific form of the left that isn't the same in other places. But I don't agree with every, like any orthodoxy where it's like, you have to agree with all of these things in order to be part of the group. Right. I mean, I'm kind of, I'm like, yeah, come into the, my program. You don't have to believe thoughts, cross feelings at all. It's okay with me. Like just, there's no, like sometimes people cut on coaching calls. I'll be like, I just, I don't know if I think that circumstances are neutral and I'm like, okay. I mean, I certainly can't prove they are. But. Here's why I think they are. And then you try it. See, like, what is help? I mean, maybe the biggest shift in my life possibly was switching from like, is this thought true to is this thought helpful, which is a radical subjective stance of like, I'm going to stop trying to figure out ultimate truth. And I'm just going to look at, I mean, I'm a very pragmatic. I was always pretty pragmatic. So that really appealed to me. I'm just like, what outcomes am I getting? Like, what's, how am I feeling acting? How am I showing up with this thought? Like that is a pretty easy way to tell whether I want to keep thinking it or not. It is so helpful. And what I found is that as. The authority and the ability to tolerate having my own authority like to, to, to tolerate. And I don't mean tolerate. I mean, like, like sit with the feelings of anxiety and to resolve those and to come kind of come back to myself over and over. It really opened up this. Beautiful world where I don't have to know like what's right or wrong in the world. I remember being with a friend, we were, um, in London and there was a sex worker parade. They were, uh, they were marching for more rights, more protections. And, you know, her take on that was, can you kind of believe this? Shameful, you know, um, segment of society there, they want like, right. So I'm like, well, is being a sex worker wrong, bad, all of a sudden it's like, I don't know. I don't know. Is it helpful? Is it, what does it produce in your life? What does it create more of? And do you like that become the only kind of basis for judgment? And it's highly subjective. Yeah. And I think, you know, there's no, in order to operate that way, you do have to take on the responsibility of deciding like, do I like this outcome, right? Which requires you to really get in touch with like, What are your own values as opposed to, is this the outcome that society told me I should care about or the, uh, the outcome that society, you know, told me that I should want. Yeah. And I think the second part of that, um, authority anxiety kind of sandwich is learning to stand. Learning to stand by a position that goes against the group, goes against the rules, goes against the ways in which you previously had connection and belonging because you have something more important, and that is that connection to yourself. And, um, tears are gonna come to my eyes right now because this is just such a tender thing for me, but I think, you know, I'm remembering now going back to the moment sitting in my parents living room when, um, they, my mom just asked me, so does this mean you are leaving Mormonism? And I had the, I had the thought. I could soften this for her. I could say like, you know, I don't really know. Maybe it's the future is uncertain. And I knew that that would kind of assuage some of her anxiety for me. But I had to say it as clearly and kindly as I could, which was yes, this is this means that I am leaving. I will not no longer be participating and. I would love it if you could say to me that you trust me, but actually in this moment, it doesn't matter because I trust me. And that was such, that was just such a huge moment for me that had been building, I think ever since, you know, that living room, which again was not her living room moment of, of coaching, where I just began to wonder, could I really do this? Right. Could I really be the decisive person in my life and someone who is not only making the decisions but equipped to handle all of the emotions that come up when you're just a regular human living regular life. So. And I think the crucial part of that is it's not that the difference wasn't that like you figured out the right answer was to leave the Mormon church and that's why you felt sure. Right. Like that's what people hear sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. And to me, it's like the goal of all of this work, I was just coaching about this and like an intensive I'm doing that I like the point of self coaching is not to be like, well, I've coached myself clean. So I make the right decision, right? Like that's not what it's for. The goal of this work for me is like, for me, feminism is I want women to have just as much of a right politically, socially, and emotionally to be a messy human in the world. Right. Right. As men have, like, yeah, we can always be trying to be a little less messy, but I would hope that, like, if you, you know, when you die, it turns out that the Mormons were right all along, that you in that moment are like, all right, girl, well, we got that one wrong, but like, I love me, and here, wherever we are in the place that Mormons who left have to hang out, like, I'm gonna have a good time for eternity with myself, and it's fine. Love that. I love that. And I think that that is just a beautiful way to wrap up this conversation, but I can't let it pass without just thanking you personally for your role in that. Because I think it is, um, it's my hope to be that type of, um, expert slash. You know, path walker alongside the clients who I have, and you certainly were that for me. So I'm so grateful and so looking forward to your book and, uh, it's released because I, I am, um, just grateful for everything that you do. Wow. I appreciate that. And I am honored to have been part of your. Transformation. Although I do want to point out, I think you took that first step before I was ever around in letting yourself believe something that was different from, you know, what the orthodoxy said. So not that I don't love the compliments, but I think you would have gotten here even without me. Um, and for those who want the book should know that you can pre order it now. And in fact, we have amazing bonus teachings that are bonus. We have, um, all sorts of things, there's a, there's tickets to a launch event. There's, um, a. 30 day work journal, like a 30 day guided journal to do alongside the book. There's audios on anxiety and people pleasing, how to stop worrying about what other people think, how to stop feeling anxious all the time. Doing a panel with Dr. Marissa Franco, who wrote the bestseller platonic about relationships. There's just a million amazing bonuses, but to get those, you got to go to take back your brain book. com. So if you order through Amazon or something. We don't know how you, I mean, if that's what you got to do, that's what you got to do. But if you want to get all the bonuses, books are the same price and you get all these amazing bonuses. If you order through the website. Take back your brain book. com. We will for sure link to that in the show notes. And when it comes out, I've already promised it, like I said, to several people. So I'll, I'll need to get on making good on that promise. Is there anything else pre orders? Cause when you order the fun gifts, that's true. I need, I need to, I need to pre order pre order those. Um, is there anything else that you wanted to add to this conversation that we didn't touch on? No, I really think that last part was it. It's like the point of all of this is not so that women can finally like deprogram themselves, make themselves perfect enough to like conform to society's expectations. Like, yes, it is great. If you can use this work to stop yelling at your kids so much. But what I really want is for you to like, love yourself, not punch yourself in the face after you yell at your kids, like to have a more compassionate. Approach towards yourself will actually help with the behavior, but yes, right. But like, we're always going to be human. We're always going to be fallible. We're always going to be flawed. And like, to me, feminism is women having the right to be just as flawed as everybody else. Yeah. Yeah. That is so interesting. And I think you're exactly right. It's the punch in the face that just gives us the shame bath that kind of assures that we're just going to keep repeating that and being free of that is such a beautiful way to find something else. So thank you so much for being here. I look forward to the book and whatever comes next. Thank you.