Episode 52: Let's Talk about Infidelity with Andrea Giles

This week I’m joined by Andrea Giles. She's a certified life coach and has a podcast called “Heal From Infidelity”. Andrea helps women sort out the confusion, grief, fear, doubt, and frustration that comes when infidelity (as well as other forms of betrayal) occurs in their marriage. Today we talk about our life stories and what got us here. We’re both on healing journeys and were part of similar religious worlds. Andrea shares her story of loss, dating, and parenting. Vulnerability and validation can make betrayal or being betrayed complex and tricky. People override their integrity for the feeling of belonging by stepping outside their marriage or partnership, and people pleasing contributes to the damage. We can work at this self-deception. Can’t wait for you to listen.

Find Andrea here:
https://www.andreagiles.com
https://www.instagram.com/theinfidelitycoach/
https://www.facebook.com/Andreagilescoaching
https://andreagiles.com/podcast/

Find Sara here:
https://sarafisk.coach
https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/
https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/
https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333
https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach
What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

Transcript

0:51

You are listening to the ex good girl podcast, episode 52. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the latest episode today. We're having a conversation myself and Sarah Fisk. We're both going to be sharing with you on our own platforms. We have been chatting lately. Um, about getting together and doing some work together for, for clients. I am having her come talk to my alumni group. My alumni, they're the people who have already gone through my, my get your life back after infidelity formally no, and 90 program, then go into my alumni group. And I, I, I sometimes bring in guests when I see a real need that a guest is better at me, excuse me, better than me at teaching. And this Sarah Fisk is, I'm going to let her, she's going to come in here and introduce herself, but I've been following her for a while. She is all about overcoming people pleasing. And the more I will say, the more that I have worked in my field around infidelity. Um, the more I see that this often goes hand in hand and it's, it's hard to get away from, it's hard to, to not have people pleasing be a part of your life. And so we're going to have a conversation about this today. Um, first I will introduce myself and then Sarah. You dive in and introduce yourself. Okay. Do you want to say hi first? Hello. I'm so, I'm so excited to be here. This is going to be a lot of fun. Yes. We, we talked already before hitting record and we have a lot to talk about for sure. So buckle in, got lots to talk about. Um, my name is Andrea Giles. I've been a coach for five years now, and I've always been in the infidelity space. That's all I've done. Um, I have a lot of personal experience in this. Uh, that I have worked through and navigated and I, I knew even when I was in the thick of it, I knew that I needed to get to the other side and, and do the training and schooling and things that I needed to do to be able to help other, other fellow travelers dealing with infidelity. I know how hard it was for me to navigate. How painful the decisions were that I made and I now have been able to help lots of women navigate the same space. I also work with. With some men and some couples. But most of the work that I do is with women who's, who have been betrayed by their spouse and are really trying to navigate it and figure out their life. So that's my space. Sarah, why don't you tell us about you and what you do? Um, I am a master certified coach and I actually started out as a weight loss coach because it was just a fun way to try to make myself lose weight. I love it. And once I realized like, Oh, this is really just to try to. A new way to force myself to, uh, to do something that I think I quote unquote should do. Like, do I wanna lose weight? I was like, no, I actually don't. And I came to people pleasing because I went through a master coach training program that absolutely crippled me in terms of my. Looking outside of myself. Do you think I'm a master coach? What do you think of me? Do you like me? Do I, am I doing this well? And it just brought up all of my people pleasing and put it front and center. And so that's when I decided this is what I want to do. And I, it's the conversation I could have every day for the rest of my life. I just love helping women eliminate the kind of people pleasing that keeps them stuck, that keeps them spinning their wheels. Um, spending a lot of time and energy and effort trying to placate and pretend and pretzel themselves into what they think everybody else wants them to be. And to regain and recoup that time and energy and do something else with it, whatever they want. Oh, so amazing. Okay. Can I ask you off the bat, could you share a little bit more about. Your own journey around people pleasing 1st of all, I love hearing the master coach situation, right? Nothing like putting us in those situations to go. Oh, my gosh. I did not even know this was here, right? These moments to see what's under the surface in us. It sounds like that kind of brought it out for you. So tell us more about your journey. Tell us more about your own discovery in, in your people pleasing journey. I think that I, and this I think is relevant. I was not, until I became a coach about five years ago, same as you, I was not working outside the home. I grew up in, A what's called a high demand religion with pretty strictly defined gender roles. You and I have talked a little bit about that. Um, and so I was home with kids and I was even taking it a step further and that we were homeschooling. And so I was kind of just, I was with my kids and other people's kids all day long. And I, I noticed in my interactions with other women that I kind of always had this nagging, like, Do they like me? Am I am I a part of this? Am I accepted? Do I belong? And that I was really reticent to express any views that I thought they wouldn't like. I tend to be much more liberal. Um. And on a scale of like liberal in my high demand religion group, like I was considered liberal. And I was like, guys, you don't even know what liberal is if you think I'm liberal, but I, you know, I did have some views, political views or social views that kind of fell outside of what the acceptable was. And I didn't share that a lot. I, Um, you know, there, there were election cycles when people were getting excited about candidates. And I was like, I think that candidate is terrible. And I didn't feel like I could share like really things that were near and dear to my heart and soul and who I believed. I wanted to be in the world and. I didn't realize I had been kind of pretending that way my whole life, just editing the parts of myself that I didn't feel like would be accepted and belong. And that kind of math, like, what can I share? What's, what, what can I add? What should I subtract to equal belonging? I think we just grow up that way. And we're not aware of how often we trade behavior for belonging. And I, it was just all around me. It was the way I grew up. Um, you know, and I, I didn't really have anyone who challenged that. In fact, And what I saw were other people doing that too. And so I was like, Oh, I guess this is just what we're all doing. We're all kind of hiding. We're all kind of placating and we're all kind of performing for other people. Cause that's just what we do and enter, you know, uh, life coach training and master coach training. And. I felt naked. I felt like everyone could see every part of my pretending and my performing and they were just watching me like, what are you doing? I remember in this particular program, you had to have a project. And my first project that I presented, I literally did it because I was like, what would they like? What would they like to see from me? What would please them? What would convince them that I am master coach material? And I presented the project. I did it for a little while. It failed spectacularly. I wish I could bring all of you in and just let you watch the zoom meeting where I'm there with all of my peers with the 2 directors of this program. And 1 of them looks at me and just says, Sarah, what? What is happening right now? They could just tell that I was like this performing monkey. And I don't say that with any derision really for myself, because it, it's what I was doing. I was like, you know, swallowing the sword and juggling and like, do you like it? Do you like it? Do you like it? Yeah. And. When she said that, she's like, what is happening? What, what is what's going on? I just, I wish the earth could open up and just swallow the whole and save me from, you know, that, that the intensity of that moment. Because it it felt like all eyes in the world were on me, but it was actually the gift that forced me to answer that question. What's going on? Well, what's going on is I don't have a very strong sense of who I am and myself. And so I'm just trying to give you what I think you want. That's what's happening. And once. That was clear to me. I just thought I, if I do nothing else, I want to address this. Oh, my goodness. So profound and so painful, so painful. Oh, man. Oh, you know, I. You're, you're making me kind of jog back in time a little bit in my own journey. If you don't mind me sharing a little bit, please, I would love to hear it. Yes. Um, you know, I, part of my story is that I was married for, for 16 years and there was a lot of pressure to stay married. You make it work, you know, um, and there was in my situation, there was deception throughout my marriage. It was ongoing and I didn't know about it at the beginning. But it, it went on for a long time and was anyway at the end, um, it was so brutal because I knew that people would judge me and I hated it so much. I hated it because I always was the, like the nice. It's like, like the name of your podcast, Sarah's podcast. I love the name. It's the ex good girl podcast. And I was the good girl. I was the good girl. I was student body president and you know, the one that was voted most inspirational, the feel good hype girl, you know, and to divorce somebody and to say no and to, and just a little bit of the background there. I was also a stay at home mom. We had six children. Um, he was a successful lawyer for Google. He worked for Google. We lived in the Bay Area and he was very successful at his job. And like, who do you think you are, you know, walking away from that? And what are you going to do? Right? And. It was quite an exercise in going back again and again and again to my own truth when I, when I did have criticism where I did have people saying some harsh things at times and judging me and being pretty harsh, right? And, um, part of my situation is that seven months after the divorce finalized, he was. Driving recklessly and got in a car accident and he died and he was 39, 39 years old, and I was alone with my 6 children who in 1 year lost their parents to divorce and then lost their dad to death. And, you know, um, all along the way there, there was some criticism about how I should be handling it. Um, a lot of amazing support too. Okay. A lot of amazing support. But fast forward, I'm, I met and dated for two years, um, and got married to a widower whose, whose wife by all accounts was just this lovely service oriented, lovely, lovely woman. And I picked up my children and moved to a town with 1200 people where everyone knew her. Her parents were right there in the community. Wow. And it was brutal. It was brutal. And for at first, kind of that I, oh my heart, just when you're, when you're talking about that moment where, you know, being the song and the dance and like, I, I, I can see that I was so much. Wanting to take care of these children who lost their mother. I, I took on 5 more children. So we had 11 kids. Okay. When we got married 10 children living at home. Okay. And, um, and wanting to, you know, really fill this void and be enough and man, Sarah, it was painful. So painful. So, so painful because I felt like. I could never measure up and, and honestly, you know, in the last really in the last few years, it's been a real wake up call to me. I, I can't keep doing this. Like, it's killing me. It's, it's suffocating me. I don't want to feel like I need to be somebody else. To belong, right? Yeah. And, um, and so it's been this journey and, and, and part of it has been becoming a coach. Um, when I, when I found the coaching, you know, the coaching teachings and things like that, it was so much more helpful to me than the vast amounts of therapy that I've done before. And, um, anyway, gosh, it's, it's a, it can sure have a stranglehold on you, right? These, the people pleasing tendencies can sure hold, have a tight grip and can be, I remember just moments of going, but if I am who I really am here, will I, will, will, will he want me? Right. Well, his kids like me, well, people in this community, like me, so painful and anyway, it's taken me, it's, it's been really, um, my work to, to be me and to discover that in me and then to let myself be seen. And the amazing thing, Sarah, is that the more that I. Risk letting myself be seen. My marriage is like not even recognizable to what it was at the beginning in the best way possible. Like, I know he's married to me because I'm Andrea, right. And because of who, what, our relationship that has nothing to do with, with her. Right. Yeah. Um, but it sure is scary that process to really let yourself be seen and go, but they might not like it. Right. Oh, it's, it is. And, and I, I would like to actually delve into why that is so hard because it is. Every bit as hard as you say it is. And I think that as women who are smart, who are, um, intelligent, reasonable, you know, magnificent creatures, we look at this, this. People pleasing part of our personalities. We're like, what, what is, why is that so hard? I have women who tell me, like, I'm a grown ass woman. Why can't I speak up for something that I think I want? Or why can't I share my opinion? And this is why. And I love having this kind of conversation. Explanation in your back pocket, because it does not make sense up here in your head, because up here in your head, you are an adult with a fully formed prefrontal cortex that. Helps you make complex decisions and anticipate consequences and it's a marvel of, of, you know, very logical processing ability, but people pleasing starts way before that's developed. It starts when we are little. And when we need big people to take care of us, we literally cannot survive without convincing the big people around us to take care of us. And they do that because most of the time they like us or they love us. And so babies, if you see a baby, you obviously have had lots of experience. So have I, um, if a baby smiles, what do all the adults instantly start doing? Smiling. She's so cute. She's so cute. And then the baby's brain picks up like, Oh, they like that. And then the baby will smile back. And it's this beautifully reciprocal, you know, event where baby smiles bigger and mom and dad or grandparents smile bigger than baby smiles more and laughs. And that's the very first connection that's made in the brain of this infant who doesn't even know that it's. A separate being yet right from these adult caregivers. Oh, they like that. And it looks for clues and it picks up information about what they like about what to give them about what to do for them. And that's how we grow up. And so that people pleasing where we exchange a behavior for a response that we like that is part of surviving. Yes. That's why it's so hard and I, and before we started recording. Sarah and I were talking about how it's something all of us deal with. Like there's really no getting around it. I mean, just based on the description you just gave, we all, we all learn to survive that way. Right. Yes. Picking up on the cues and adapting to what's around us. For our own survival. Absolutely. And then we just grow up and then there's more big people who give us ideas about how to please them. There's rules they want us to obey. There's roles that they want us to take on. And whether it's parents or religious leaders or. Coach or your favorite teacher at school, or, you know, all your world just becomes full of people who want to tell you how they think you should behave. And many of those people love you very much. Yes. And so it is not something they are doing. To harm you. In fact, they think this is how I'm going to keep her safe. I'm going to teach her to be a good girl, to be nice and respectful and kind, and to not rock the boat and to not do anything that's going to upset other people. And that's how she will be safe. And so all at the heart of everything we do or want as humans, it is for safety and belonging. And that is what we risk when we stop people pleasing. So no wonder it is, I think. The hardest work that a human will ever do, and I think just to touch on this because I do think it matters, I think in the beginning, people who are socialized as humans and people who are socialized as, or not as humans, people who are socialized as females and people who are socialized as males, we all learn to people please. Everybody across the board. I think men, boys, boys, Have a few exit ramps that women are not given, like the whole boys will be boys excusing, you know, their, their behavior, um, valuing things like being brave and tough and opinionated and standing up like those tend to be in very broad strokes, more the domain of how men are socialized rather than women. Um, and so that's kind of where I see the fork in the road is that. Men do have this option to become very individualized and, and to, and they're praised for a lot of the behavior that women are penalized for. Um, yeah, yes. And it's, it's sad to see. And also I agree with you that it's, that's the work of your life, right? Because, you know, we've all heard the term people pleasing. I'm sure our listeners have, have heard certainly yours. And I have, I've done a podcast before about people pleasing on my own platform, but I don't think we often even touch the depths of it. Like it sounds, it sounds like this, you know, just like a little thing, a little. Just, Oh, I need to stop people pleasing. And I just think it is it's tentacles reach so much deeper and further and wider. Then then we know and, you know, yeah, it's it's the I think you're right. You hit on it's not to stop people pleasing. We have the other side of that coin is letting ourself be seen. So it's inherently. Risky. It's inherently vulnerable because it's true that some people might not like it, right? It's absolutely true. Yeah. And, um, might not agree, might not, might want you to go back so that they can be comfortable, right? So they can be comfortable with, with the old version of you or when you did this other thing. And that's why it's so hard, right? That's why it's so difficult because it's this process of stepping more into your own and this. Explorative journey of who even am I? Because so many of us have been told who to be not so much allowed the space to explore who we actually are, right? Yes, yes. And then a shocking number of us. Get married. You're right. And make these, these, you know, promises about who we will be in this relationship, but we don't even know who we are. Yes. And, and I'm not even talking necessarily about age. I mean, right. You know, 25 years old is about prefrontal cortex, you know, fully formed time, but it can be anywhere from 25 to 30. How many people do we know who are already married? You know, by, by then, especially like you and I have a shared religious tradition. It's very common for people to get married quite young, but even out in the wider world, you know, getting married in your late twenties, early thirties, you are barely coming into the capacity to know who you are. And you've already formed this relationship with another person. And so many people, pleasers come into relationships without. A sense of who they are without a feeling that what they have to say is important that that, um, they matter as an individual. They're afraid of conflict. Because it must mean again, it touches on that safety and belonging. Button that we're so, um, so afraid of of pushing. And they have all of these expectations about. Who they should be that are defined outside of them by other people. And so in terms of infidelity, tell me what you think that sets them up for. Oh, goodness. Okay. Here we go. Easy question. Yeah. Um, okay. So depending on so I work primarily with people who have experienced the betrayal around the side of being betrayed. But I do work with, with both, um, and it sets both parties up pretty nicely for catastrophe. It really does. And part of what I see 1st, I'll speak to 1st, I'll speak to the, the person who is doing the betraying. Okay. 1 big piece of it is. Not not having a solid sense of who they are very much looking for belonging and validation outside them. And also lacking the skills to know how to ask for it. It's not just about sometimes it is a lot of the time. It is about how can I, like, who am I to ask for more or. Not wanting to rock the boat or, um, being afraid of conflict. Okay. Being afraid, but it often is really, truly lacking the tools and skills to have those, those conversations that can be really uncomfortable. And so if, if this, if the skill is not there to say, hey, this is, this is what I want. Can we. Collaborate to create more of what we both want here. Often what will happen is walls will go up and up and up as both parties are are not feeling that belonging, not feeling validated, not feeling like their needs are 1 and wants are being met. Um, kind of closing off to each other and it leaves a vulnerable situation, right? It leaves like, if you think of a, a tight, uh, you know, a tight container, it's going to be you're drilling holes into it. Right? There's, there's places for, for energy to leak out. Right. And often, um, in some situations, what this looks like is if somebody has somebody coming to them. This is a situation that I hear all the time where somebody came to them for help. Okay, they were needing help and they were just needing some support because of this thing. Their mom died or. Their, their spouse was divorcing them and they were just needing help and then they got kind of sucked into this and felt like the belonging and valued and, oh, you're so important. And you're so special. And you, oh, you're so amazing. And they get this, this rush, right? This rush of. Um, I mean, it really is like scientifically a chemical, a chemical, um, but they feel that validation and they don't know how to give it to themselves and they don't know how to, how to ask for more in their marriage. And so they become easy prey to this situation. Okay. That's one scenario. Um, another scenario is kind of like you said earlier this, how, how men have people who are socialized as men have this off ramp. Like you said, if boys will be boys, they can't help it type thing and that mentality can create a big problem called grandiosity. Where it's like, I can skirt around the rules because it's just, you know, I just, it's just what we do. Like, I, I don't, I can get away with things that other people can't get away with. Um, I can behave in a way that others can't get away with and then they make excuses for themselves. And you know what? The sad tragic part about all of this is that neither of those are true in any way to who that person actually is. They are both false. They are both false. And neither of them will actually bring real, real satisfaction, real peace because they're, they're overriding their own integrity, right? They're overriding their own values, their own integrity, their own who they really are. For this, for this belonging. Okay. Now going over to, um, my clients who have been betrayed, you know, almost every time, um, with, there's a few exceptions, but almost every time they knew, and there was, there were moments where they knew it, they knew something was off, they knew it, and they had this intense fear of rocking the boat, making waves. I don't want to see it. I don't want to know. And so they shut down their own intuition until it kind of got to the point where they just couldn't anymore, or until it was like, blatantly in their face and they had to deal with it. Right? And so, where people pleasing can kind of create that dynamic is this, we are really good at gaslighting ourselves. Like, we'll have these intuitive hits, like, really know something. I know this, like, know that there's something here. There's something to pay attention to. And then we're so quick at talking ourselves right out of that. No, no, no. And guess who knows this? Well, me, I do ask me how I know. I did that. I did that in my first marriage. I had, Oh my gosh. Like there were so many blatantly obvious things that were a problem that were so terrifying to me. Because of what it meant of what I would, who I would have to be of knowing it would make waves of knowing that I could, I would risk him being critical of me, him getting mean him, you know, and he did, he did those things. And and so it's no wonder it's no wonder that we. We shut it down, right? And where we want to feel belonging, we don't, we want, don't want to feel like we're on the outs of somebody. And so anyway, back to your question, people pleasing. Yeah, it's, it makes us ripe for allowing behaviors. Within ourselves and from other people that none of us, none of us deserve and that goes both ways. It goes both ways for the people who are doing it. And the people who are at the other end of it, like, it's, um, it's hurtful to everyone involved and it creates damage for everyone involved. Yeah, I think the thing that I heard the loudest when you were talking was. It's, it's a lack of truth. Yes. All the way around. And if we want to talk about, you know, just from the, the point of view of, of the, the usually female people pleaser. Uh, you know, personality. We're used to lying though. I mean, we're praised for lying. We are praised for pasting on the smile and saying, no, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. No, you, that didn't hurt. You were not mean you'd, uh, that don't know. It was fine. I was fine. Oh, I'd be happy to do that. Yeah, no, that works. I can make time for that in my schedule. And so it's. It's such a mind trick to look at this dishonesty as, as something that is optional, right? First of all, because we're just so praised and raised to be liars to tell us, you know, to say. I mean, you think about all the different ways in which we as just humans in general, females in particular, are told to separate ourselves from the feeling that our body is having, right? We are told Like, I remember it was a big deal in my family growing up to finish your food and my stomach would be full and I would have somebody say to me, finish your food, you have to finish. And so I would have to disobey the feeling of fullness in my body to shove more food in. I remember having very uncomfortable interactions with adults and being told, but he's your so and so or he's this, let me, you, you need to disbelieve the discomfort in your own body and believe what I am telling you as this adult outside of you who. You know, who loves me, which makes it all the more confusing that you are fine. There's nothing happening or being like enraged about something and being told to calm down, being told that my anger was wrong or that I had to apologize when I did not feel like apologizing. Yeah. And so I think we have to step back and say that. Many of us come by this dishonesty, honestly, 100%. Yes. And, and that it is kind of baked into the experience. And so learning to tell the truth is such a revolution in and of itself, because what it means is you have to slow down and actually make your logical experience. Mesh with your emotional or bodily experience, and that's just not something we're taught to do. Ever women routinely overwork, overgive, over perform to the point of exhaustion because we are so good at ignoring our pain, our cycles, our seasons, our, our emotional capacity. And so, um, the fact that we are so skilled at that. Self deception, um, I think, in fact, when I teach, you know, in, in my, in my group, we have 5 challenges. And the 1st challenge is to tell the truth. Because it is just such a huge revolutionary experience to slow down to ask, what am I actually feeling about this? What do I actually sense in my body? Like, I know my brain is telling me it's fine. Put on a smile. Tell him everything's okay. But is it? And to slow that down is such, it's such an incredible practice. But I think that's what I heard most in what you were describing is that we are just so we have so little skill at honesty. Yes, I will say in my work with both, both the people who have been betrayed and those that have, you know, been unfaithful, it's fascinating to me and something that I've had to, that I've done a lot of work around with clients. Let me spell out like. Let me just give you a description, an example of what this looks like. Okay. So often, often there's a dynamic shift, okay. Where there's this huge rupture, this huge rupture, and there's this piece of my, my women that are so angry that they finally feel like they can say everything that they have been holding onto. And there's this. Relief to them, like, you know what the only way that I can even fathom staying is if I get it. It's like they purge right? Just like often years, years of things that they've held on to that. They finally are. They feel like they have the right. Is that sad? Like they finally interesting. I know they finally feel like, okay, now, now I can say it all and they do. And there is a relief there. Okay. But here's something that happens is that sometimes the balance shifts and my clients then sometimes can be somewhat abusive. To their partner and the partner is in this 1 down position of, well, I'm the 1 that did this and this and this. So I just have to take it and it's the same dynamic. And let me explain what that means. They were not telling the truth before, and they're still not telling the truth. Yeah. Do you see what I'm saying? Yes. Yeah. It's like, they're just kind of taking what they're given because they think that that's all they deserve. And so they're not actually saying, this is what I want. This is the kind of relationship I want because they don't feel like they can. And so part of what I do with my clients where often I'll have clients come and like my, oh, let's say one of the people in my group and she'll say, I was so mean, like, I was so mean and I'm so ashamed and I'm so embarrassed. And there's no need to be right. There's no need to be. It's us. We get we get to be human all day long and then we get to look at it and go, okay, what kind of person do I want to be? And what's the gap between where I am and who I want to be? And how can I help my strengthen myself to that? Right? And, and, you know, just like you said, it's learning, it's learning how to tell the truth and holding on to our own convictions and not being swayed. And managing the, the, sometimes the panic or massive discomfort that ensues when we speak our truth. Right. And for, and, and in both parties, like, if you're going to create something that's sustainable here. You both need to have a space where you can tell the truth. Yes, there are there. There's a time of repair where it, you know, it's very raw and we're needing to be there. 100 percent for, you know, for my clients when they're, when they're really raw and in shock sometimes. Right? But when you're actually trying, going back to the rebuilding, both people, there needs to be a room for both. It there needs to be room where both people can tell the truth and where the person who did the betraying is like, you know, I can have done this thing that I am that I hate that was wrong that I am embarrassed about and I can still be a worthy person that's worthy of. Of the things that I want, I can both there needs to be a room for both and there's a lot of growth that's required there on both parties to make room for that, right? To hold space. And then for, yeah, I've got plenty of clients who leave, right? Who say, I don't, I don't want to do that, but, but their work still is in, um, carving out room for themselves, right? To really hear their own voice and understand why they overrode their own tuition. And how they can support themselves moving forward, right? This work is necessary for all of us, wherever we are, because you're going to tell the truth. I mean, your work will be to tell the truth in whatever relationship you are in, even if it's just a relationship just with yourself. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, um, I, I love what you said about like telling the truth is like the precursor to anything getting solved, whether it's going or staying, whether it's divorce or reconciliation. Um, I have had, uh, the position of being like up front and center for several, um, affairs. All involving people that I love very much and without telling the truth without letting go of the extreme self delusion and entitlement that the person who has the affair usually has. Um, there isn't an opportunity to be in a relationship with someone who is actually themselves and then without the person who was the victim of the affair, stepping up to believe deeply in their own. Um, right to be who they are in the relationship where they're not acquiescing anymore. They are not pretending everything is fine. They are not withholding what they want in the relationship to I, I, I agree. Yep. There's it all starts with telling the truth. Yep. And on, on both sides and it's, it's really, it's the only way I get so only way to create a real, a true sustainable. Relationship. Right. Yeah. And here's no shortcuts. And here's one thing that I want to say, just as a side note, as, as someone who, um, I have not experienced infidelity. We've talked before on this podcast about pornography being a part of our marriage kind of in the early days. And, you know, the religious. Tradition that I, you know, that you and I kind of share has very, very strict views. No pornography. It's bad. It's evil. It's like infidelity. But, um, I went into a period of time where I really enjoyed having something. Kind of over my husband, you know, in, in a way that I, I used in a way of like, listen, you know, I might be cross and I might be critical and I might be judgmental, but at least I didn't do that. Yes. Yeah, and and, um, him kind of being in the position of having to, like, just take it because I did this horrible thing. Yep. The other dynamic that I want to talk about, though, is that when the people pleaser is in that. Position of taking the crumbs. It is often motivated by, I can't do better than this. I don't deserve more than this. I don't, um, nobody will love me for who I really am. Cause I've never shown anyone who I, I really am. And, you know, both positions I think are really, um, not true. Right. Yeah. Not, not an accurate description of what you as a human deserve. Where I see people pleasers, um, kind of getting tripped up sometimes is that in a lot of our talking about affairs, it's interesting because, like, for example, if my husband hit me. I don't know that there would be many people our age in this kind of day and age where we are, who would say to me, well, Sarah, what did you, did you provoke him? Were you not like, what did you do to bring that on yourself? Because we would just understand it as abuse and wrong. Now, can we recover from that? Can he do the work he needs to do? Yes, but it is his work to do. And in no way am I responsible for making myself less hittable. Yes, less, less abusable, right? Yes, but there's this interesting dynamic that I've seen when we talk about affairs in that. There's some victim blaming kind of. Um, that slides in to the experience, because we do tend to look at the victim of. Infidelity with kind of like a, well, I mean, what, how did you contribute to this or how did you kind of bring this on yourself or create the dynamic in which this could have happened? And I'm just really interested in your thoughts on that. Yes. Um, so, you know, it's been, this has been one that I myself as a coach grapple with in my own understanding, my own definitions, my own truth. Okay. My own truth here. Yeah. Yeah. And my thought is that at the end of the day, we all have choices, right? We all have choices and that there are always, always other things we can do than the thing that we choose to do every time, every time, every time. And no one can make anyone else be unfaithful. No one can make, because here's the thing, it's not, it's, it's not this, I'm going to go out and go do this thing. It never is that. Rarely is it like, I'm going to go cheat on my spouse. It's, it's one small decision followed by another small decision followed by another and another and another. Where there are red flags, you know, screaming like, hey, pay attention, pay attention. Where there is a choice there. There is a choice of going, I could shut this thing down right now by doing this one thing. Nope, I'm not going to. And then often what happens is people feel like they got in over their head and often are quite miserable, but they don't know how to stop it. And then also the people pleasing of the terror of telling the truth. Right. The terror of being exposed because she's going to leave me or she's going to whatever. Right. And so, um, what I, my angle is never, ever under any, in any circumstances to say you drove him to do that, never, ever, ever, ever my, but I will say my, my whole mission, my whole vision for my clients is that we're going to take this. crappy sucky thing that is probably the hardest thing you've ever experienced in your life thus far. And we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna use this thing and make it work for you. If this is what you are dealing with, we're gonna, we're gonna mine. For the gold and turn this into something that serves you and how I go about doing that with my clients is I help them to see, like, for example, earlier on, I talked about if you have like a container, we all have ways that we leak energy out. We all do right where, where, you know, if we think about this container that are that we're in with our partner, um, we all do. We all have areas where often around people pleasing where, for example, maybe somebody is not always loyal to their spouse in the way of talking highly of them because they're afraid that their mother is going to. Uh, a judge, or I need to please my mom by chatting about my spouse, right? Like, these are little poking little holes, right? And we're leaking energy out. And what often what we're doing is talking to other people. About situations that we need to bring inside that container and let it get messy. Let it get uncomfortable. Let it turn so that it can be worked through there. Right? And so a lot of what I do is I help my, my clients strengthen themselves to really looking at. Areas where they have muted themselves, where they've muted their own knowing their own intuition, their own strength, their own value, their power, their authority. And I help them to step back into that so that they can tell themselves the truth of what they even want going forward. Right? And, you know, for a lot of them, honestly, what they see what they can see where I did not know how to address. The growing contempt that I felt to him, so I shut down and I pulled away and I withdrew intimacy and I withdrew. But this is not to blame at all. It's just collecting data, right? It's just to know to see ourselves lovingly hold ourselves and go. Yeah, it made perfect sense for me to do those things when that's I didn't know otherwise. Right? And and then they can kind of look at that and go. Yeah, I don't love how I feel when I feel like I have to hold everything in and shut people out just to survive. I don't love carrying that. That does not feel good to me. And so it becomes an act of love for themselves. Right to work through those things, but it's for them and then other people get to be the beneficiary of it. But it's for them. Okay. Um, real quick, I wanted to go back to something you said about. Oh, this has been such a great conversation, so many gems, but you said something about some of the, the white, the stories that we tell in adapting, you know, becoming people pleasers. And you reminded me of one that I directly was told. Okay. Want to hear it? I'd love to. Oh my gosh. I'm getting ready to cringe. Oh my gosh. Okay. So, so growing up, we, and it kind of crazy, um, My own, my, my real dad, my biological dad was actually killed in a plane crash when I was 2 days old and, um, my mom got remarried and he was abusive. They were married from when I was 2 till I was 5. and then my mom got remarried again and he's still my dad and I love him, but it was rough growing up. He was pretty harsh and they were always dirt poor. And when I say dirt poor, All of my middle school years, we grew up with no electricity and an outhouse on the side of the road, and I spent a good portion sleeping in a tent with my brother and my sister in Oregon, where it rained a lot and we were cold a lot of the time. So when I say poor, I mean, we were poor. Okay, no plumbing, no phone, no electricity. And that was for from 6th grade to 8th grade for me. Okay. And when we would go and express something that we wanted, or that we're unhappy with every time it was, you're so ungrateful. You don't know how good you have it. And those words have been a challenge for me to work through, um, like in my 1st marriage here, I am married to this successful lawyer. And, you know, he financially takes good care of our family. And I, I look pretty, we look pretty good on the outside. Wow. And so I had to really battle with that invalidating my own unhappiness and my own, you know. Not being okay with some of the things that were there. Like I, that was a huge battle for me, but Andrea, look how good you have it. You're being so ungrateful. It took a lot for me to go. No, this is not enough. It's not enough. Not for me, not for my kids. Real internal struggle there. I only mentioned that because I'll bet there's other people listening. that have struggled with the same thing. Oh, it is. I mean, there is not a person listening who hasn't struggled with some form of that. And I love, I love to just normalize it that way because it doesn't matter if. You are living in the horrible living conditions that you lived in, or whether you heard those words. You don't know how good you have it living in a, a, a, a palace, right? Yes. It's, there is something, there is something about that phrase that teaches us to doubt our inner experience. Yep. What you are experiencing is not valid. Yes. And something outside of you is the, the authority on what is valid and what is not. And so what I love about what you teach is your first job is to tell the truth, and then to collect and look at the data that you might have been afraid to look at. Yeah. And. When I do a lot of relationship coaching, I have a lot of women who say, I am afraid to do X thing because he or she might do Y thing. And I don't want to know what that thing is. And what I tell them is we actually do want to know because it's data. It's data. It's data that shows how willing are they to be responsive to you. Yep. How willing are they to reciprocate? How willing are they to be in a relationship that is collaborative, that is growing, that is recognizing both of you as individuals, and oftentimes the answer when they get, you know. Whatever the why thing is that they were afraid of happening is that it's great. And it, it, it strengthens and moves their relationship forward in the direction that they want it to be going in. And sometimes it's not. And sometimes when they stop people pleasing, there are people who have. Been the beneficiaries of that people pleasing behavior that don't like it. Yes. Yes. And that want them to get back to people pleasing. Yeah. Get back to hiding yourself, editing yourself, not showing me who you really are. Cause I don't like that. And what I want them to experience and know is that this hurts right now, but we actually want this data. Yep. Because moving through it means. You have a choice to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't see you and doesn't want to see you or to find a different relationship where somebody will, and you can choose either 1. Yeah, I don't know why right there, but there are reasons why, you know, even temporarily, sometimes we stay in relationships where we are not seen, but. What I love is that it doesn't really matter how the not seeing is happening, whether it's infidelity or something else, whether it's something like in my own marriage where there wasn't infidelity, but I was afraid to stand up in some ways and be me because I thought it would be quote unquote too much. That's a message that we get a lot like don't don't want too much. Don't don't. Have two big emotions. Don't be too angry. Don't be too loving. Don't be too joyous. Don't be too needy because you know, people won't like that, but to be that person and to feel loved and accepted as that person first and foremost by me. And then to show these parts of me to my husband has been what has renovated. Our relationship time and time again, what has resurrected it, what has rejuvenated it. I'm thinking only of our words right now, I guess, but you know, that the, the way in which our relationship has become the beautiful, beautiful thing that it is today is by increasingly being able to tolerate the discomfort of telling the truth. Yes. Amen. And it's such a beautiful, beautiful thing. You know, something that I, That I believe to my core and that I, that I teach and help my clients develop into is that there's this beauty in knowing that somebody is telling you the truth, even if it's hard for you to hear like that is intimacy. That's intimacy, right? Really letting somebody letting you in on what is the most true thing for you. Even when they know that it's, you know, that they are taking a risk, right? And sharing with you and holding that for each other, even if there's temporary conflict, even if it's temporarily uncomfortable, there is a beauty and strength in it. That really is transformative. It's transformative to go. I can, I can be this person. I can hold space for this other person who is exposing themselves. It's so beautiful. It's so beautiful. Even if it's difficult, there's beauty in it. Right? Um, really, like, we got to know who we're with. Right? Who, who we really are with. And often to know who we're really with, we need to let them bump up against who we really are to see, can they, can they met, can they meet me there? Right. And the precursor to that, which is where I get so many of my clients when they come to me is I don't know who I really am. Yes. I've been pretending to be this other person for so long and being so richly rewarded. Everybody thinks I'm so nice. Everybody thinks I'm so kind, so helpful, so giving, so generous. Yes. And I live with this constant, like, bubble of resentment just below the surface. I don't like that, but I don't know how else to do it. So to find the truth, the true version or the truest version of yourself that is available to trust it. That is the precursor to even being able to offer that to someone else. And so I am so excited to come into your community and talk about. How to do that, and I'm going to give everyone listening kind of just a sneak peek. It all comes down to the same thing. It is tolerating discomfort. It is having the tools to tolerate the massive amounts of anxiety and panic and fear and worry and self doubt that come up as a natural, normal part of this process when we. Dig for that truth when we find it, when we think about, um, living it, when we think about showing it to other people, when we imagine their reactions, their judgments, their criticisms, it is being able to tolerate the discomfort of that. And, and I'll just give a quick little, you know, something to think about. You're already tolerating massive amounts of discomfort hiding and placating and, you know, chameleoning yourself into whoever you think people want you to be and, and being afraid of standing up and saying what you want to say, you're already tolerating so much. Discomfort, what I want to do is just show you how to say different words, the truth, right? Yeah. Trust that. And to feel a different kind of discomfort. Yep. Yes. It's like, I think of the first version there of like being all contorted, right? All like, I'm just going to hold myself in this very uncomfortable position for as long as I need. And like your leg going numb and. You know, getting a Charlie horse. So good. Such a good visual. Yeah. Yeah. Unfolding and that, you know, that discomfort of stepping forward, it's forward motion that can feel like, if you think of going to the gym and intentionally growing new muscle on purpose, it hurts, right? It's uncomfortable, but you know, you know what you're doing it for. There's intention in it. Like you're, you know, that it's. It's the highest act of love for yourself, right? It's so that's such a good, um, metaphor. I love the visualization of that, you know, contorted women and. What I say, I use that metaphor of lifting weights a lot, like in the beginning, when you are on contorting and you're like unfolding yourself and it feels like you're standing naked before the world, that is like lifting the weights. Right. And you start with two pounds. But what you realize is that that is a virtuous cycle that makes you stronger. Whereas The cycle of staying contorted only creates atrophied muscles, muscles that don't work the way they're supposed to anymore. And it produces more of the same of that people expecting you to be the contorted woman. Whereas. Saying what you want to say, rusting your intuition, knowing who you really are becomes easier and easier and easier. Yeah. Yes. I love it. Oh, so good. We covered so many amazing things. I know there's lots more that we could say, lots more we could talk about. Um, it's been such a joy to have you, you know, to, to have this conversation with you. We've covered a lot of ground. Um, let's, let's wrap up a little bit here with how can people learn more from you, Sarah? My website is Sarah Fisk, S A R A, F as in fun, I S K dot coach. Yes, dot coach is a, uh, is an internet thing these days. And my podcast is the ex good girl podcast. You can find it on any of the podcast platforms. And I help women stop people pleasing. I take individual clients and I have a six month course that is done in a group setting where. The healing power of a community of women who are all kind of working toward the same goal. That's what you offer your clients. And I would guess that your clients have the same experience. Mind you, it is just such a beautiful work to do in a community of cheerleaders and other people where you learn from each other. And it's, it's just a really beautiful. Way of doing this work, which I love so much. And I would really love for my listeners to know where to find you. Because I know for sure, I know for sure that there are people who are struggling with this either privately, or, you know, maybe with trusted people around them who could really use your wisdom. Sure. You bet. So I also have have a podcast. It's Heal from Infidelity is the name of my podcast. You can look up that or Andrea Giles. Um, my, my main program, it's a group program. It's called Get Your Life Back After Infidelity and I have, it's just a group of amazing, amazing women who want to get Reclaim themselves, reclaim their life and be very deliberate about how they move forward and, um, a process that I take them through. It's the, it's called the post infidelity growth method that I've developed and it's. It's, it's simple, but it's, um, not easy, right? This work that we're talking about, like simple things to remember, and then the discomfort of actually pulling the trigger and going and doing the things right. Um, so I do some one on one work as well. Um, but my main offer is this group, partly because of what you said. Earlier, um, I have seen, oh, it's just transformational for people to be in the same room with other, other people who are experiencing the same things. There's just something so healing about sitting on a call and hearing somebody say the words that are in your head, right? And it's amazing to go, oh my gosh, like, I'm not, I'm not the only one. I'm not alone, like truly to know that, like that the struggles that you are the most. Embarrassed over the most afraid to let somebody see to see somebody else say the very things that you are that you've been holding on to. And so there's great power in being in a group and watching other people. And then also learning to take up space in a group. Even that piece. Oh, right. It's so good. Oh my gosh. It's so good. Like, please, it's, it's yours. It's yours. Speak up, take up space. Right. And, and so there's a lot of growth there, but those are the main ways to, to learn from me. Well, it's beautiful. I, I just cannot ever get enough of women. Humans socializes women coming together to heal because I feel like that is something that our, our modern kind of way of living has deprived us of, right? We're often having these very siloed, lonely experiences and And what our brain tells us in that moment is, you know what, I think there's something like extra special, super broken about you. Right. And like you uniquely are damaged or unfixable in this way that other people don't seem to be. And so it just kind of reinforces that, like, I can't tell anyone, I can't open up about this. And in these communities, um, there's just the most lovely unfolding Of of our human experiences and everybody looks around is like, oh, my gosh, I'm not I'm not extra special super broken on on any level. This is just the human experience. It becomes so much more doable and so much more of a of a joyous celebratory act when we witness each other. Taking steps forward into telling the truth. Yep. And into living the kind of life that becomes available when you tell the truth. Yep, exactly. And 1 more thing that I'll say is that my program is such that people join and then they, they, they can join when they're ready to join. I've done it both ways where there's like 1 start date where they all start and finish. And then I've done it where I have people like, when they're ready to join. And what I've seen is that. Yeah. In that 2nd model, people can look to somebody who's been in the program for like a month or 2 and like, it's just so profound to see when we how, how much we can grow so quickly when we have the right support, right? Where we're when we have people around us where we have the right tools. And so for my brand new people who get in there and are a little afraid and nervous, and they can see these other women who are just like going for it, right? If there's something so, oh, just so loving and like reaching back and helping our fellow travelers, right? Helping them on their journey, and it can be healing for the people that are a couple of steps ahead, because then they can see. I was there. I was there like a month ago, right? Absolutely. It's just really, really powerful. It's really powerful. I have, I have, I only have one rule in my group and I'll, I'll pass it on, uh, because I think it should be our rule for. Anytime we talk, the first rule is you, you'd never start a sentence with, I'm sorry, but apologize because we apologize for taking up space for airing this part of our lives that we think is so terrible and bad. And the second is I just give everyone in my group, the thought. If she can do it, so can I. Oh, I love it. She, if she can do it, so can I. So I love it. No apologizing. If she can do it, so can I. I have found to be really great places for any of this work to start. Love it, love it, love it. Well, thank you so much for this conversation. So good. I know that I'll be thinking about it myself, tossing it around, thinking about it. So many great things here. I've, I've loved talking with you. Well, I'm so excited, uh, to have my people listen to this and to have you as a resources and to be in your group doing this work with your alumni. I know that we'll love you. Yes, I know that we'll love you. Sarah's coming into my group in February and being a guest coach and going to dive into all of this with my, with my people. So wonderful. All right. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you, Andrea.