Episode 53: Imposter Syndrome with Kori Linn

In this episode,  Kori Linn and I discuss Imposter Syndrome. Kori is a life and career coach as well as the host of the Satisfied AF podcast. She helps clients, listeners, and social media followers create more satisfaction & delight in every area of their lives. Imposter syndrome points the finger at individuals and burdens them with being “better” or improving. It burdens the marginalized individual with changing so that they can fit the system without criticizing the system. People socialized as girls and women are literally trained to have imposter syndrome. We're socialized to second guess ourselves, be polite, and not to brag. Unwinding imposter syndrome starts with asking, “What are your perspectives of yourself and what would happen if you treated yourself with confidence?” Can’t wait for you to listen.

Find Kori here:
https://www.korilinn.com
https://www.instagram.com/korilinn
https://www.facebook.com/korilinn.careercoach
Get Kori's Satisfaction Audit here:  https://tinyurl.com/satisfactionaudit   

Find Sara here:
https://sarafisk.coach
https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/
https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/
https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333
https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach
What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

Transcript

0:52

You are listening to the Ex Good Girl podcast episode 53. Corey Lynn. I am excited to jump in because, uh, Uh, not only do I think you're an amazing person, I love the way your brain works. I love, love, love the times that you have coached me. You've always helped me to see something That wasn't part of what I thought the problem was that always ended up, like, helping me see it in a completely different way. And so this is just such a Treat for me, and I know for the people who listen to my podcast, they're gonna love it. Well, thank you so much for having me. I am very delighted to be here. I love all the conversations we have, and it feels like such a treat for everyone that, like, they can share in and out because I think we have some of the best conversations. I agree. Tell everyone who you are and what you do. Okay. I am Cori Lyn, the host of the satisfied AF podcast. I'm a career and life coach, um, and I coach people on all kinds of areas of their life from relationships, Um, to building businesses. My specialty started out as career, but what I really found was the way people are showing up in any of any The way people are showing up in any area of their lives can impact all the others. And so I quickly became an everything coach because, like, I'd be coaching someone about work and work stress. And then it would turn out part of work stress was that people leave chocolates in, like, the kitchen at work, and that was, like, a stressful interaction. So then we coached about the chocolates. And I just really love getting to support people in that holistic way in every area of their lives. And what I really help people do is enjoy their lives more and get more of what they want. And I love to help people specifically go after their goals in a way that feels fun and sustainable because I see so many people going after their goals In a way that feels like grueling and, like, crawling across a hot desert. And I just don't think we have to do it that way. Um, Um, and I think it's a lot more fun and, again, sustainable to make it enjoyable and doable. Well, We're we're recording this in January, and so this is the New Year's resolution time of the year. Uh, do you do New Year's resolutions? Tell me what you do. I I don't really like to be governed by the calendar. Um, I think I have my own rhythms and seasons. And, like, this year, for instance, I got COVID over the holidays, and I got really, really sick. So I absolutely was not Thinking about, like, setting myself up for success and, like, resolutions. Like, on January 1, I was just trying to, like, Breathe through my nose and get 12 hours of sleep at night. And now that I've been healing and feeling better for a little bit, few weeks, Now I'm starting to get excited about, like, what do I want 20 24 to be like? But I think, like, it ebbs and flows of, like, when I'm interested in setting goals and, like, Deciding where I'm going and marching forward. And when I'm like, you know what? I think I just need some quiet reflection. I need to reevaluate. I need to see, like, where am I And how did I get here before I think about where I wanna go next? I love that. I I do love the energy of, like, a new year, and I I realized, you know, that's a lot of, you know, programming in the way I've been taught to think about it, but it works for me, um, to kind of Take the time to look ahead. Like you said, what do I want 20 24 to be? How can I make some intentional decisions around that? The conversation that I Wanted to have with you today is about imposter syndrome because it comes up Inevitably, in every single conversation that I have with people who I coach, which are people socialized as women in this kind of patriarchal, capitalist, western thing we got going on here. And you have just said some things. I've read some things that you have written from your own work and the work of others that really have, like, literally made me stop thinking about it And realize that I have been unwittingly participating in kind of this interplay between Imposter syndrome and goal setting. Because oftentimes, when you have someone come in who wants coaching around, You know, goal setting, career path, advancement success. They want to get, quote, unquote, better. They want to get they wanna make Progress, and they wanna be rewarded for that in terms of career, and they're deeply afraid of being found out for you know, The the that they're not as qualified as they think they should be or there's this ideal that they keep beating themselves up with. And so I let's fix that right now. Okay? Let's just fix it for women everywhere. People socialize as women. Okay? Can we do that? I mean, we can try. So, yeah, I I talk about this a lot with my clients too. I probably have at least 1 podcast episode on it. But I think imposter syndrome is so interesting because I think specifically people with marginalized identities and being socialized as a girl or woman is a marginalized identity. Um, it's the only marginalized identity where you're actually not a minority, which I think is really interesting to think about. But people socialized as girls and women are literally trained, In my opinion, to have imposter syndrome because we're trained we're socialized differently than people who are socialized as boys and men. We're socialized to second guess ourselves. We're socialized to be polite. We're socialized not to brag. We're socialized to to be demure and, like, all these things Then I think it's like a it's like a pipeline. Right? It's like the socialize as a girl or woman pipeline to, you know, having imposter syndrome. And, Like, I know this podcast and your clients are people socialized as girls and women. Um, but I think it's worth saying also the The other marginalized identities? So because if you're socialized as a girl or woman and you also identify like, if you're also black, if you're also indigenous, if you're also a person of color, if you're queer. Right? Um, if you if you're an immigrant without money. Yeah. If you're an immigrant. Right? If you do not belong to the dominant, Like, identity in any way, and especially if you have these overlapping marginalized identities, you can be socialized But kind of multiple times in this direction, like, you have to be better than everyone else in order to be able to be in that room because you don't look like all the people in that room. Um, you have to be beyond reproach. Right? And even as I say this, like, I'm getting, like, chills in my body, which is not something that normally happens when I talk. It usually happens when other people talk, but, like, Some of these are so in our collective consciousness that we've heard it over and over and over again. Like, we are not afforded The same things as cishet white men. Right? And so, of course, a lot of us have imposter Syndrome. Of course, we're, like, in a meeting going, who am I to say this thing? Of course, we're laying awake at night wondering, like, if we're gonna be found out for being a What I also think is so interesting about this is again and again, when I coach people who have this, I'm like, well, did you lie about your background and experience? And they're like, No. And I'm like, okay. So it's really interesting though then that you were honest about what your experience is. Like, yes, you have a law degree. Yes. You worked at another organization for 5 years. And yet, even though you told the truth, you still think somehow you fooled everyone into thinking you're someone you're not. Right. So, like, when you look at the facts, it's kind of like, wait a minute. That doesn't check out. But because it's that socialization piece. Right? It's this. And socialization is a habit of the mind. Right? You're in this mind habit where now you're marginalizing yourself from the inside because you're That's what you were taught to do, and you won't even realize it. Right? You'll be like, oh, this is just how normal people think. And because Half of the world is socialized as girls and women. It is how normal people think, but, like, that that's not necessarily useful for you. Right? So I think kind of just coming to understand that, like, oh, of course, I feel this way. This isn't evidence that something's wrong with me. It's evidence that something happened to me. Because to be socialized is to have something happen to you. It's to have other people teach you and shape you. And sometimes it's like your parents and teachers, But sometimes it's also, like, not exactly a person. It's what movies did you watch? It's what what TV shows? It's what books did you read? And how did those shape your view of the world and your place in it and what you're allowed to have and what you're not allowed to have? And that is why I love Cori Lyn because, I mean, kicked I don't wanna end it there because I actually have a lot of things I wanna go back and and kinda dig deeper into. But what you that was Just a brilliant, beautiful summary of of what I'm hoping that I can understand on a deeper level and that People can understand that we end up discounting ourselves, marginalizing ourselves because of what has happened to us. And so we create in some ways this thing that we think is happening to us. We have a we we participate in perpetuating it. We didn't create it. Right? We didn't create the system that has done this, and I wanna talk specifically about that. But what I love is that coaching is all about finding the place where you have power The power. The power to make it different and in looking at the socialization of our minds and how we just have been taught to think that is the place where we have the power. Let's back up for just a second first because I want to get a good working definition for people who might be hearing this term. They understand it, but they're not quite they've heard it, but they don't Maybe quite understand it, marginalized. Can you give us a good identity or a a definition of what marginalized means? Um, so we live in a culture that has certain identities that are kind of seen as the default. Right. That would be considered the dominant identity. And if if you're not aware of this, listeners, that's okay because until someone teaches you about this, You wouldn't know because that's sort of how the system is designed. The system is designed to cater to certain identities, but it almost Seems invisible until And it wants to hide that. Yes. Right? And but once you learn to see it, it's it's everywhere. Right? Okay. So, like, just To go over some for, like, American culture because I'm not an expert in all the cultures in the world. In American culture, the dominant identity is male. The female identity is the marginalized identity because our culture was not designed with women in mind. It was designed with men in mind. And, like, we didn't even have the right to vote until what? 19 20? Um, and the right to vote is an interesting 1 because, like, the right to vote is you can see, like, who It was originally for. Who was the culture originally for? It was originally for, like, white male landowners. Right? So white is the dominant identity in American culture. Um, let's see. Able-bodied or able minded is the dominant culture, whereas disabled is the marginalized identity. Cisgender is the dominant identity whereas transgender is the marginalized identity. And, like, I wanna be clear. Like, I'm not the 1 saying, like, these are less than. They're not less than. But culturally, the way the country works, the way the culture works, it it orients towards and caters to the dominant cultures. In American culture, Christianity is the religion that is Considered, like, the dominant religion and other religions or, you know, lack of religion like being an atheist or agnostic, those are, You know, the non dominant, the marginalized groups. Um, let's see. Heterosexuality is, uh, the dominant in this culture. And you can see, like, queer people didn't even have the right to get married until recently because they are a marginalized group who was not afforded the same rights. Now I think it's also worth saying that sometimes groups are afforded the same rights, And that doesn't mean that they're now the dominant group. That just means they have been brought into, Like, some amount of access to things, but sometimes those groups can come into and out of access because they are not the dominant group that the culture caters to. And there's, like, lots of ones that I haven't talked about. Um, like, wealth is another way. And, like, what we're really talking about here too is also privilege. And I know that's a touchy term for some people, but all privilege means is you don't have to face certain obstacles. Privilege doesn't mean things are necessarily super easy for you. It means there are obstacles someone else is facing that you don't have to face because of 1 of your identities. I'm a white woman. So there are obstacles I've just never had to face and probably didn't even know about because of my whiteness. I'm also a woman. Right? So there are obstacles I have faced that, like, a man, but had not have known about or even considered. Right? So we all of us are constellations of identities, and usually some of our identities may be That dominant slash privileged identity in some of our identities, maybe that marginalized identity. I'm also queer. Right? So that's also an identity that I have. And I didn't realize I was queer for a long time, which because we have this thing, um, called compulsive or compulsory heteronormativity, which is basically the idea that everyone is treated straight Until if they come to their own conclusion of, like, wait a minute. No. I'm not. And that socialization is so strong, um, that even when I had had sex with women. I was like, oh, I'm just straight, but, like, there's this, like, whole cultural narrative of, like, you're doing it for attention or, You know, these kinds of things. So I was like, oh, I'm obviously straight, but, like, I'm adventurous, which is, like, so embarrassing now because it was, like, so obvious. But To claim the queer identity felt really scary to me and also, like, maybe I'm not allowed, right, to have that. Um, you know, So that but that's an example where I transitioned from believing I belong to the dominant group to realizing I didn't, and that really impacted, like, Certain areas of the country. Like, I remember going to a small town in Washington, and it was, like, the first road trip I was on with my girlfriend. Um, and she's masculine of center. And so she very much does not look like a straight person whereas I'm a fem, so I could pass if I needed to. And I felt so unsafe, and that had never happened to me in a way that had to do a sexual orientation. Now because I am a woman, I had gone to other places and also felt unsafe in a, you know, physical safety way, but never for that reason. And so that was really interesting where, like, It's that privilege is an it's invisible. When you belong to the dominant culture, you don't realize you're not facing obstacles because you're also facing some other obstacles because you're still living life as a human, Which has a lot of, you know, things that go wrong and obstacles and stuff. Right? So, like, losing the access to that was really stark for me because I, like, Felt it happen because that also happened in my thirties when I was really aware, and I'd lived this whole adult life already. Um, so I'm a bit of a tangent, Um, talker listeners. So my apologies slash you're welcome. Um, does that answer your question, Sarah? Are there more things in there you wanna dig into? No. I I that is a a fantastic answer. And I I think what I wanted is for people to understand that marginalized beings, it just wasn't built For you. It wasn't built with you in mind, and so you get to participate in the system, But you're constantly running into all the ways in which it wasn't built for you, the ways in which you have to fight for access equality and how even once you get access and equality, that still doesn't mean it was built for you. And the ways in which there may be implicit or Explicit pressure for you to conform to the thing the way it is, which you may sense in your body and mind As imposter syndrome as well, it's that, like, round peg square hole. Like, oh, this was not designed for me. Ergo, am I actually allowed to be here? Yeah. And then how do I go ahead. You. I was just gonna say, like, I I I think often, like, when when you are able to get into those spaces, you're also able to bring, like, really brilliant, interesting, beautiful ideas because you're thinking differently and you have different lived experiences. Like, If everyone in that room has the same lived experiences or very similar lived experiences, then, like, what they're able to come up with creative like, creatively is gonna be limited. So I think, like, we need more, like, diversity so that people have, like, more creativity and more interesting ideas. So, like, If you wanna be in those rooms, I want you to be in those rooms, and I wanna help you get there. But I also wanna help you have a more pleasurable experience of being in those rooms and a less A less tortured 1 because that constant, um, imposter syndrome can feel like torture. And and it can keep a lot of people from even venturing into those rooms. Right? Because they discount and and take themselves out before they even get there. So how I wanna say something else about that before I tell your Please do. Yes. Because what I wanna say is and, like, if you don't wanna be in those rooms, that's Also okay. Like, what I also wanna say is you can build your own rooms because I know sometimes to be in a room that wasn't built for you can be extremely stressful. So just because you could add value doesn't mean you should or you have to. But if you go into that room and you feel that pressure and it feels off and it makes you question yourself And then, like, you walk away less confident, then I also think you're less likely to go build your own room because your confidence has been knocked down. You have that, like, who the fuck am I to do this? Oh, are we allowed to say the f word? Absolutely. Okay. Cool. Like, who who am I? Right? Whereas if you go in and you're like, oh, this wasn't built for me, they're lost. Like, then you can maintain more of your sense of confidence and your sense of capability and go build a different room. So overcoming imposter syndrome is not about being able to Stay in a system that you don't like being in that doesn't feel good to you. It's not about assimilating. Right? But it's about understanding why you feel uncomfortable there and then just making the choice for yourself of, like, do I wanna create comfort for myself there? Because for some reason, it feels important for me to be there. And, like, I'm very practical. Right? So that could be like, I really wanna keep this health insurance, or that could be like, I really wanna make a change from the inside of this organization. Or you could be like, Oh, I'm a make a change, but I'm not doing it over here because being in that space is not worth the cost that I'm bearing. Right? So it's like, I want you more to, like, have the possibility to do whatever it is you want, um, but understanding why certain things May bring up insecurity, imposter syndrome, and all these, like, really painful feelings. Yeah. I love the differentiation between Having the skills to make the choice to either stay in a system that was not built for you and navigate it for reasons that you really like and that are valuable for you or to leave and create a different space, belong to a different system because that is what works better for you. Mhmm. How and, actually, here here's here's what I wanna do. I read something that you wrote, And I'm just gonna kinda summarize it probably badly, and I want you to give me your thoughts and just kinda take it from there. So Sure. What you wrote was that what you have noticed or have have in the work that you do, imposter syndrome Points the finger at individuals and burdens them with being better, with Improving, uh, you can see my fingers are you may be making air quotes if you can't, uh, if you if you can't hear that in my voice. It burdens the individual, the marginalized individual, with changing so that they can fit the system without criticizing the system. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. And we see this a lot, um, because American culture, Western culture is very individual oriented. And so if you, the individual, are experiencing something, um, the culture often puts the onus on you to fix Like, oh, you're feeling imposter syndrome? You should talk to a therapist or a coach. Now listen, nothing wrong with talking to a therapist or a coach. I am a coach. I talked to a therapist and other coaches. Those are great, but it's putting the pressure on the individual when the problem is actually systemic. Right. And this is about imposter syndrome, but it's also about all kinds of other things. It's about burnout culture. Right? It's about, Like, oh, you're super stressed at work? Like, instead of changing the structures of work and organization and, like, flexible The blah blah blah. In, like, 30 hour work week, we're just gonna be like, you should do something about that. Right? So I think there is a way in which Systems put pressure on individuals to conform, but they call it, like, you do some self care, um, and then come back so you can work in the system When a lot of times the system needs to change. Now listeners, you may be, like, surprised to hear me say that because I'm a coach who does work with people individually. And The reason for that is because, like, life is complex, and sometimes we're not able to change the system and we're not able to leave the system. And so we are going to go out and do the Thing that's gonna help us cope, which maybe is to get a coach, maybe it's to get a therapist, maybe it's to get a coach who's gonna then help us launch a business so we can leave this job. Maybe it's like we're gonna get a different job. But a lot of my clients actually what they do is they learn to change their they change how they interact with the system in a different way that then helps them, Like, either be able to tolerate the system for longer until they can make a move that feels good, or sometimes they can even change the system or they can start a business with different systems In it. But just because we understand that the system needs to change doesn't mean it's necessarily going to as fast as we want it 2 in the ways we want it to. But I think it is important. Also, it's just like understanding, oh, I feel imposter syndrome because I was literally trained to think this way about myself. Maybe I'd like to change the way the culture trains girls and women, but I also have to do something about the socialization in my head now. So if you're in a you're in a workplace Culture where, like, they're putting the onus on you to fix, like, your stress or whatever. You may take actions to address that, But I also don't want you to take responsibility, like, for what's actually not yours to take responsibility for. Um, because I see this a where people try to control the things they can't control and take responsibility for those, but then but then also sometimes don't wanna take responsibility for or control the things they can control. And I just think it's really helpful if we get clear on where our power is and use it there Even if, like, there's other things that play that that, you know, maybe need to change as well, we might not be able to change them at the exact moment. Does that make sense? It does. And that's exactly kinda what I wanted to narrow down to. So within these systems that were not created for People socialize as women. People socialize, you know, uh, well, as women who who inhabit other identities. Even though these systems were not created for us, here we are. Mhmm. And we we have to learn how to I I I I I think the goal of coaching and the goal of your coaching in mind is here we are. How do we learn to have a better experience being here where we can take responsibility for what we are actually able to change and then leave what we are not able to change in ways that we are happy with. So where do you start to unwind something like imposter syndrome? Oh, where do you start to unwind? I mean, I'm a fan the kind of coaching I do is Anytime someone comes through something, I'm like, give me an example. And whatever example they give me, that's where I'm gonna begin to unwind it. And I kind of see it like, um, I am a sometimes knitter. So, like, recently, I haven't been knitting, but I I do know how to knit. And sometimes your yarn gets really, really tangled. And when your yarn gets really, really tangled, you just start somewhere. Now if you can find the little 1 of the ends of the yarn, that's a great place to start because then you can kind of, like, wind it into a new ball as you're, like, untangling the knot. But sometimes you just have a mess, and you just start picking and pulling on the threads. And you're like Like, this actually happened the other day because I was untying my shoes, but it didn't work the way it's supposed to, and it became a big knot instead. And then I didn't I didn't know, like, What was not working? I was just like, well, it's not working. So I just began to pick and pull until something happened, and then I was able to, like, figure out how to untangle it. And so that's how I start All of my coaching. Right? A client will come to me and they'll be like, I feel imposter syndrome. I wanna drink less. I wanna like my significant other again. I wanna stop yelling at my kids, and then I'll just be like, give me an example, and then we'll just begin to pick and pull apart, like, what's actually happening here. And what I love about coaching is it's it's often a little bit different. Like I, as the coach may may have a guess, I'm like, maybe it's this, and then, like, we untangle it. And sometimes I'm like, it absolutely wasn't that. Right? That's so fun and interesting. Um, like, from the point of view of, like, being practitioner. It's fun and interesting. I think sometimes when it's your situation, it's it can be less fun and interesting. I will I will admit that. Sarah has coached me, so she's seen me be like, this is neither fun nor interesting. Um, but but I think imposter syndrome in a lot of ways, like, how to unwind it is really about seeing, like, what are what what are the perspectives I'm holding to be true about myself, and, like, why am I doing that? And what am I afraid would happen if I was, like, Treated myself well and was confident. And, like, what are the triggers that are, like, kind of, like, the stressful situations or the interactions with other people that are Bringing up these insecurities, um, and kind of, like, getting a pic like, get it piecing together, like, what's the picture of what's going on now, And then getting into, like, what how do we want it to be? And then we just how do we bridge that gap? Because I think that's what coaching really is about whenever you're coaching anything. It's like, where are we now? Where do we wanna go? And then how do we bridge that gap? And then usually in the bridging of the gap, there's a bunch of obstacles that you don't even know about ahead of time, and then you just 1 by 1 As they arise, you figure out how to do it. And that I think is why I see it like untangling yarn because I don't know what I'm gonna be doing 3 steps from now. I just have faith that if I keep doing what I know how to do, we will get to the other side. We will get an untangled piece of yarn. We will move through. Does that? Yes. It does. Brilliant. And I think what I love about it is that I have the same experience in that I know the basic landscape of, like, learning to not people please anymore, learning to leave perfectionism behind. But it is always a different kind of journey with different obstacles for each person. 1 of the places that I think is essential to start Because I was so blind to it, you and I have talked about how we, you know, kinda grew up on different ends of the religious Spectrum, I grew up very religious. You grew up not at all, you know, religious. And, um, although you did have you know, you've had some experiences with With religion, it was like, you said it so simply. Like, I was literally trained to think this way. And when I saw, I was trained to doubt myself constantly, to look outside of myself for confirmation that I was doing it right. That I I was trained to be, um, to be polite, to be kind, to acquiesce, To To be humble. To be humble. I mean, I I keep bringing this book up in every podcast because I just can't get it out of my brain. Um, Elise Lunan, On Our Best Behavior, The 7 Deadly Sins, and how they were, like, marshaled to control women's behavior, Like greed and pride and and envy, I was trained not to have any of those and Mhmm. To Constantly just be worrying about, am I doing it right? Am I being pleasing enough keeping the rules? And do people like me? And so seeing that for me was mind boggling and enraging because I thought That was just being a good person. That was just being a good wife. That was just being a good Christian, a good mom, a good, you know, whatever. And so Yeah. What are your thoughts on that? So a metaphor that I like to use sometimes is that human beings are like sponges. We're just like sweet little sponges. And then whatever you put the sponge in, it's just gonna absorb that. Right? So if you are raised In a high demand religion or even outside of a high demand religion just with those same ideas that Sarah just mentioned, that's just what your sponge is gonna absorb. It's gonna think it's reality because it's a sponge and it doesn't know. Right? Like, if you put a sponge in like, if you Spill olive oil on your counter and use a sponge to wipe it up. The sponge is just gonna absorb the olive oil. It doesn't have an opinion about it. Right? It's like, okay. This is what we have. And if you put the sponge, like, in orange juice, it's just gonna absorb the orange juice. Like, it's just gonna absorb whatever is there. And I think that's how Bradens are. Right? And especially because, like, you think about, like, humans as compared to other animals, we are so much more dependent As babies. Like, a lot of animals are born and they can, like, walk in, like, a few hours or a few days. Humans are born and we're just, like, Not doing a lot for, like, a while. Right? So we rely on our caregivers so much, And I don't think any of us actually know who we would be and what we'd be capable of if we were raised from babyhood in certain different kinds Of culture. And especially if like, like, can you imagine if there was no internet and that, like, you never found out like that there were other ways of being, If all you've ever known is something, it's all you've ever known. Right? And so I think we we need to have so much more grace with ourselves for how we were socialized Because, like, that's just what your sponge had around it. And, of course, it was gonna absorb it. You cannot put a dry Sponge and liquid and have the sponge be like, I don't think so. This seems sus. That's not what sponges do. They just absorb it. Right? And, I mean, I think that's 1 of the things that's really interesting about being human, but I think it's also 1 of the things really hard about it because Most of us do have some beef with our parentals and with our culture and with other things about, like, what we learned. Like, I don't know any humans who don't have to do some Unlearning. But on the, on the other hand, pretty fucking cool that we can. Just because your sponge absorbed a bunch of orange juice doesn't mean you have to be orange juice Forever. Because coaching is essentially taking that sponge and running it through water and rinsing out what it learned and what and putting some soap on it and then rinsing it out Some more. Like, we can't change the journey your sponge has already been on, but a sponge is magical and that it can release when it's absorbed and absorb something else. And when you see yourself as a sponge, it's so much easier not to, like, be mad at yourself for the things you absorbed. Like, That literally you were designed to absorb. Like, that's how babies learn. Right? If you put a baby somewhere and people are speaking French, that baby's gonna learn French. You put a baby somewhere and people are doing a high demand religion. That baby's gonna learn a high demand religion. Right? That's, like, that's what brains do. Yeah. Now I do believe there's, like, a little bit of personality, and some people might be a little more rebellious or a little more this and that. But that kind of that basic operating system is just gonna be dropped in By what you're surrounded by. And so, like, being able to, Like, not be so hard on ourselves if we're like, wow. Why didn't I know better than to not to, like, absorb what my caregiver stopped me? I'm like, well, You know, but, like, but this is, I think, 1 of the magical things about coaching is coaching like, there's the past, and a lot of us are like, ugh. But coaching is like, okay. But here we are now. What would you like to do? Right? Because we can't I don't have a time machine. I'm very sorry. We can't go back and change the past, But what we can do is we can change the present, and we can change what you're gonna have access to in the future. And we can maybe even change some of your perspective on the past, Even though we can't change the past itself, like, we can't undo the, you know, the tumults and the journey that the sponge has already been on. But we can give that sponge A new lease on life. And we can help it move into I I love this metaphor because it's like a sponge, but I'm like, we are sponges. We're sponges. We can Yeah. You know, like, anything's possible for you now, basically. I love that metaphor. And so I'm thinking about, You know, someone who's listening to this who identifies with the imposter syndrome mindset, like, who am I to say this? Um, they're gonna find out that I am not the most amazing, you know, ideal whatever whatever. What what Where do you what would you say to them? Like, just today? Okay. So today, If you're like deep in imposter syndrome, you might not be able to move over into, like, actually, I'm awesome. That's probably gonna be too big of a stretch. Right? The in order to make change sustainable, we usually need to make it small. I call this just making it doable. Right? So we just need to make it smaller steps. So if you're like, Wow. I'm an imposter. Like, step 1 could just be like like I was talking about before. Like, well, did I lie to them? Did I lie to them about my education Or, like, my background? Um, because, like, probably you didn't. And if you did, like, we're gonna have a different conversation. But, also, if you did, like, wow, you're really good at being an imposter. Like, maybe celebrate that. Um, but probably you didn't. Right? Probably you have the degree you said you have. Probably you have the you said you'd have. Right? And so just moving from, like, what I'm gonna call, like, the terrible story of imposter syndrome, That's terrible. It's terrible because it makes you feel bad. Right? Into just, like, the neutrality of, like, well, what are actually the facts? Right? Let's fact check this. Like, if you're like, I'm a fraud, it's like, well, is your CV full of lies? Probably not. It's probably actually accurate, But, like, you're kind of have this idea of, like, why I have to be perfect to be good. Right? That's all that's not true. You didn't put on your CV, I'm perfect. You put on your CV, like, I went to this law school and then worked at this firm for 4 years. Right? So I think just, like, remembering that, like, The bar is actually not be perfect. The bar is, like, be a sort of average human who can do some things. Now perfectionists hate this. I'm a recovering perfectionist myself, But perfectionism and imposter syndrome go together really tightly because imposter syndrome is often about, like, our inability to meet our exceptionally high standards, um, Versus, like, usually, we get hired to do a job because we can, like, basically do a thing. Right? Like, they don't actually need you to be perfect. Right? So we go from our, you know, terrible story of imposter syndrome into our neutral story, and I would just hang out there for a while. And then after we hang out there for a while, we get sort of comfortable with this idea of, like, Yeah. I'm a lawyer. I said that and it's true. Now I'm just gonna do some lawyer things. Then we can slowly move into building confidence. But, usually, we're not gonna go from insecurity to competence in 1 step. It it'll it'll feel too far and you'll boomerang back, and then you'll actually often feel More insecure and more impostory. Right? So we're just gonna kind of edge towards, like, what's true, And then we're gonna begin to notice, like, the ways we're actually good at our job. But side by side with that, I would be holding that mental, like, awareness of, like, Oh, and maybe, like, my brain just wants to keep repeating the terrible story because I've literally been trained to be humble, and my brain's Such a perfectionist that it took being humble too far all the way because, like, what is imposter syndrome but humility, it's, like, gotten a little too excited about itself. Right? And, like, I do think for those of us who, like like, I I do have perfectionist tendencies. And so, like, if I learned a lesson, like, be humble, my brain would like, let's be Right. Let's be so humble. Right? Which is like We're gonna be the best at being humble. Which is too much. Right? Yeah. Versus, like, Just like a little bit of that could be okay. Um, but it's kinda like I always wanted to get, like like, get a hundred and 5 on the test. Like, That's literally more than a hundred percent. Like, we don't need extra credit in this, maybe. I love the distinction that you make between This, like, perfectionistic ideal, this these exceptionally high standards that I tend to think of, like, yeah, that's the ideal. If no mistakes happen, if everything goes exactly perfectly versus This is just what this job requires that I do. If it's a lawyer job, if it's a mom job, if it's a, um, in teacher job, whatever. Mhmm. I find that that is so true that we have this exceptionally high standards, Impossible, you know, benchmarks, this ideal that we just keep moving toward that always just moves away from us gets higher and higher and higher. We're never there. Like, our brain never tells us actually, you know what? You did reach the idea. You did do it perfectly. And transitioning away just noticing that thinking and transitioning away to, like, what does the job that I was hired to do, if we're talking about Career or the job that I have before me. What does it require to do mean to do that just means it's done and I've completed it? Yeah. And so what I love to think about with this, and it makes my brain hurt, it makes all my clients' brains hurt, Um, is lowering our standards for success while still allowing us to have really high standards for delight in what's possible. Because people like me, you know, and my clients were like, I'll be happy when and then it's this, like, laundry list of things that, like, maybe could happen, like, once when all the stars align and everything comes together and the weather's perfect. Right? And I'm like, my hair looks good. But, like, I don't want to only be happy when the stars align and the weather's perfect and my hair looks good because those like, that's not that often. And I just don't think life is meant For us to feel like shit most of the time and then be happy like once a year. That's like, if you wanna do it that way, I'm not here to stop you. You're in charge. It's your decision, but that's not what I want for myself. And so I realized, like, oh, if my high standards are making me feel bad, maybe that's not what they're supposed to do. I actually have a whole Instagram thing about, like, if your high standards make you feel bad and not wanna do your goal, you're using high standards wrong. That's not what they're supposed to do because it's not actually making your performance better. It's making you not do anything and then feel bad about yourself. Right. So that's when I got into, like, what if I could, like, way lower the standards? Not not so, like, everything can be like, but But just so that I can get myself going, but I wanna keep the high standards for, like, delight and what's possible and what could be interesting and what could be fun. Like, But, like, I wanna allow kind of that space to be like, this is, like, where I get to be creative and it's interesting and, like, oh, wouldn't it be cool if my hair did look good and the weather was nice in the same? I mean, that would Fun. I like that too. But, like, what if I can lower it? Like like, okay. Like, I answered some emails and did my coaching calls. That's success at the at the lower bar of, like, I did it. Yeah. Right? And then getting to experience the satisfaction of I did it. I did it. Letting it count. That's how I that's how I talk about a lot is, like, letting it count. It's like we don't let we only let the final perfect Product count instead of all of the success and all the obstacles we work through and all of the things that we did on the way, and it it Provides such a limited experience, like you said, for pleasure and satisfaction and feeling really like, yes. I did it. I did the thing. And so I love that shit. It's like enjoying your marriage versus enjoying your wedding. Your wedding Oh. I've never been married, but, like, I bet it's funny because I've never I've never had a wedding, but I basically have a marriage because my significant other and I are very, like, partnered. We're very together. Um, she's divorced, and she didn't wanna get remarried. And I used to think like, uh, we're gonna have a wedding. I'll talk you into it. And then, eventually, I was like, I don't even like big parties. Why would I do that? Why would I do that? Because I've been socialized to want a wedding since I was a baby, like, asterisk. But to to move back to the metaphor, it's like A wedding is like 1 day people put so much pressure on it. Their hair again, their hair has to look perfect. The weather has to be perfect. Their dress has to be perfect. Like, everyone has to behave perfectly. And it's like so much pressure, but a marriage is every day. It's you know, Alex And I both had COVID over Christmas. So it's like now we both have COVID. Can that also be part of the fabric of our wonderful life? Like, I want a wonderful life. And to me, that does often involve embracing ups and downs And learning to, like, enjoy moments that are imperfect because that's all of them. Yeah. That's all of them. Yeah. Yeah. So I love what we have covered. I wanted it this this is just kinda how my brain thinks, and so I'm gonna summarize it this way. So When we see that we have literally been trained to think this way Mhmm. It can offer us Options for opening up that thinking, and I love how you said transitioning from imposter syndrome straight to, Of course, I belong here. Yes. I'm the most confident woman in the room. Is it likely? And so to spend some time first In recognizing the socialization and just seeing that, actually, I didn't lie. I am you know, whether it's the, Um, a job you've been hired to do or a job that you're just doing. I am qualified to do this. Interesting that I my brain kind of Tries to make me think that I am not and hanging out in the neutrality of just recognizing that there are things that are factually true that I wrote down on my resume and have as a part of my CV, and my brain continually wants to discount that and not let it count. Mhmm. Yeah. So then once we spend some time there, like, what is, in your opinion, The the switch into seeking confidence and, like, really feeling the confidence that so many Women don't feel like they have access to. Mhmm. Well, as you were, like, kind of reviewing the things we Talked about I've realized, like, another thing, another element that I'm like, oh, this is actually, I think, really helpful is realizing that for a lot of us, especially, like, those of us knowledge workers. We're not hired to know exactly what to do. We're hired to be able to figure it out. Right? So if you go in here, like, I didn't lie about my job experience, But I have this assignment, and I don't I don't I don't know. Then it's remembering that, like, yeah, you're supposed to not know Because they didn't like, very rarely anymore do we get hired to do things we a hundred percent know how to do. Some people do. Right? If you're a master electrician, You probably know how to do it. Honestly, I don't know. Maybe they don't either. I'm not a master electrician, obviously. But, like, even for me for coaching, it's like I get a new client, And I don't know what we're like, I know the tools I have, but then I have to, like, get to know them and figure out how the tools apply to them, and then how are we gonna, like, move through the things, and how are we gonna get to where we wanna go? And if you're a lawyer, you might have worked at 1 kind of firm and you might work somewhere else, But, like, don't discount what you do have because I think that's what makes us feel so miserable as we discount what we do have. And and a lot of this is also just because human brains have negativity bias. Like, in addition to, like, the way we're socialized and all this other stuff, we also have negativity bias. So our brain really wants to hyper focus on what's not working Or what also, like, might go wrong later. And it can feel actually very bizarre and uncomfortable to, like, notice what is working and, like, What we do have. Your brain's like, yeah. I don't care about that. I care about these threats over here. So there is also a little bit of training Uh, like, the brain is naturally like Velcro for what's not working, and it's like Teflon for what is. And so 1 of the things I work on with my clients also is just, like, Paying attention to and acknowledging what's working and going well. Now, again, if that feels too far for you, you might have to stop through on neutral. So that could just be, like, acknowledging what's Neutral. Like, acknowledging what's neither good nor bad. Right? Like, oh, they gave me this assignment. I don't know how to do it. Okay. But, like, did I learn how to do assignments at my last job? I did learn how to do assignments at my last job. Right? Yeah. And so the chances are Chances are I'm gonna be able to figure this 1 out too. Yeah. And, also, it's like and you're not in a vacuum. You actually have resources. It's interesting. Like, when we feel imposter So, Jeremy, we often also lock ourselves down because we're afraid of being found out. We think we have to know everything and then we don't ask other people. Whereas when we feel kind of more like I know some stuff and don't know some stuff, and that's normal and how everyone is. Then we're also like, you know what? I should probably talk to Gail or Martine. Right? I should talk to somebody and, like, how they can help me figure out the pieces I don't know because, of course, I don't know some pieces I'm supposed to. Like, in a meeting, Usually, the person who's willing to say I don't know is actually, like, the most confident person. Right? I I remember really, like, taking that to heart when I worked in corporate tech And realizing, like, if I don't know, maybe a bunch of other people don't know, and then just beginning to ask questions that I was afraid were really obvious. But Oftentimes, a lot of other people also don't know. So there's also an element, I think, too of, like, where imposter syndrome is comparing your inside experience to What you observe about others? But you don't you don't know. It's possible like, a lot of other people in the room also feel uncertain. Right? But if you're, like, kind of trying to hide your own uncertainty, you might Yes. Miss out on that chance to connect with them. Which just further marginalizes you. Right? The the hiding and the withdrawing that is so normal when you feel exposed or overly, like Like, they're gonna find out. I hide. I withdraw. I protect. And I think that just contributes to further Discounting, counting yourself out. Isolating. Yeah. Yeah. And then Oh. Inside my brain, what my brain tells me is, See, you were right. You were right to think that you shouldn't be the 1 speaking up. You were right to think that you don't have enough, you know, to make to figure this out or to make this happen. Please tell me I just saw a big idea in your brain. Yes. The I I don't wanna load you all down with too many big ideas. But the other big idea is I think there's also something that happens about whether your belief in yourself is, Like rigid or flexible because rigid things shatter. Right? If your belief in yourself and your, like, confidence is, like, rigid and it can't fluctuate with knowing and not knowing, Then if you come across some not knowing, your your self confidence may shatter and then you don't have any. Whereas if your confidence in yourself is, like, flexible and you're like, I'm really good at Stuff. And also, I don't know everything. And, like, then sometimes they become good at other things. And then I ask questions and it's okay if I don't know. That's flexible. Um, Um, and it's kind of like bridges are built so that they can wiggle with the wind, which if you think about that while you're driving over wind, that seems scary because I'm like, please don't wiggle. I would not like that to happen, But that's actually what makes it safe. Right? So, like, if you such a bridge. Yeah. Wiggle, maybe you can too. Right. If bridges get to wobble, maybe you can too. And maybe that, like, rigid, like, have it all together. I got it. If that's what makes bridges fall down, Maybe that's not helpful for you either. Yeah. I love the idea of the the flexibility of that that you're talking about because what I find and I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Is that when someone has a very rigid like, I have Have to know everything. I have to and and their their trust is in more of, like which oh, gosh. It's just such a mind fuck because we are programmed as women that to speak up, we have to be so well researched. We have to have all of our reasons. We have to, Like, we have to present these bulletproof arguments that Mhmm. That that no 1 can disagree with. Otherwise, we didn't really know. Everything that we, You know, present can be questioned, and then it's it's about us not being good enough to even take up space and and have an opinion. So on the 1 hand, we have to see that programming. Like, I have been programmed that unless I really know my shit, I shouldn't speak up. But on the other hand, that's so rigid and the flexibility to believe I can figure this out. And If I make mistakes along the way to figuring that out, I am not gonna beat myself up for that. That's where I see so like, the risk averseness of women is I don't know. I need to figure it out. I'm gonna start taking some steps in this direction. And if I fuck it up, I'm gonna be really, really mean to myself about it. And so it kind of locks them in this place of indecision, overthinking, and overwhelm. Yeah. Well, I think 1 of the myths there is that you can get anywhere in life without making mistakes, which I just don't think is true. Right. But if you think you're not only can you, but you're supposed to do it without mistakes and then you have 1, then of course, shame attack. Yes. Retrea. But if you're, like, obviously getting anywhere in life requires like, I just like to make up stats sometimes. Don't worry. I don't pretend that they're real. I like to tell people, like, But, like, so let's just make up the statistic that to get to any goal, it's gonna take at least 10 mistakes. Right? Then you're like, great. I had a mistake. I'm going. Like right? It's like Yeah. Think about, like, a baby learning to walk. They they usually have some wobbles. Right? They fall down. Or, like, learning to drive a car. You didn't just get in a car and know how to drive it. Like, I remember getting in a car, and it was a stick shift, and I had 3 pedals. And I was just like, what the Fuck is this? I just was like, get me back out of the car. Right? Like, I thought it would be 2 pedals. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So, Like, we're not, like, we're not supposed to learn without mistakes. Like mistakes are actually supposed to happen. And, well, it's not like I think they're a super fun time. It's not like I'm, like, Actually, really enjoy them that much. But when I can accept and tolerate them as part of the path to getting what I want versus evidence that I might fuck up, then I'm able to, like, I'm again, it's that flexibility. I'm able to, like, allow them into the experience. Maybe I have to go in a bathroom and lock the door and cry a little because, like, I'm a Huge crier. I'm a very big feeler. Right? And but, like, it's not evidence that I'm flawed. It's evidence that I'm doing something. Right. Growing often requires messing up. Like, do I wish it wasn't so? Sure. I don't conveniently have a magic fairy wand I can wave though. So, like, this is what we're all this is what we're working with. Right? And the more that The mistakes make you feel terrible. The more you're gonna hide them and not be willing them to have in public, you're allowed to do it that way, but it's gonna slow you down significantly. Now I'm still mindful about it. There's some mistakes that I'm like, that seems a little bit big. I I'm willing to go slower to, like, maybe have a slightly smaller mistake that, like, Like, it it's a little bit like what's your tolerance. Right? Like, what's your what's your risk tolerance? What's your mistake tolerance? But growing your mistake tolerance can grow It can, like, speed things up for you. Um, and and and that can be fun because then you can start to like, even if you don't like the mistakes, you can see them as Evidence that, like, you're taking big swings. Yes. You're trying and you're moving forward. Yeah. I have loved everything that we have talked about. And what I hope is is for people listening, you can take 1 or 2 ideas and just put them in your back pocket, pull them out, look at them, and think about, like, What if I really just am programmed to think this way? Wouldn't what would change if I really truly believed my thoughts about myself are not ones I came up with in some vacuum. Right? It's so informed by The way that we grew up in this western capitalistic patriarchal, you know, like society, what if that's really true? And 1 of my favorite questions that, you know, you and I have both worked with and for Cara, um, and Carla Lowenstein why did I just forget her last name? Lowenthal. Lowenthal. Thank you. I'm like, what is happening? Um, and she Ask the question, like, when when a woman is detailing all the ways in which her brain tells you tells her she's wrong, she will say, well, does your brain ever tell you you're right? Did your brain ever and that question was like it blew it wide open for me because, like, isn't that interesting? My brain Just will tell me all day long that I got it wrong. It never tells me that I got it right. And so just taking 1 or 2 little things that could blow this open for you. That's what I hope. Corey, Lynn, what do you hope for people? I just hope that there's something in here that, like, helps untangle the knot, whatever the knot is for you. Like, I just hope there's something that, like, wiggles things and makes you see things even slightly differently, even 1 degree differently where you're like, wait a minute. Maybe I can have, like, a business. Maybe I could have a different kind of relationship with my significant other. Maybe I could parent differently. Like, maybe I could get promoted. Maybe I could actually be a really good CEO. Right? And just, like, just wiggling things even just a little bit because little bit by little bit is how every big thing gets done. Also, I have a fun and special prize for your people. Um, I have an a workbook. It's called the satisfied AF Audit. And it helps you go through your life and figure out exactly, like, what's working and what's not working in each area. And People who've done this before have actually told me it makes them feel so good and so much like, there's often so much more satisfaction in their life than they thought. So I think that's Also a great way to wiggle things forward and shift out of imposter syndrome into, like, a delicious, delighted, Yummy version of your life. And so Sarah's going to include that for you in the show notes as well. So If you thought that the conversation here was interesting, that's also a way you can take the work deeper. I love it, and I'm so grateful. People, um, maybe they know, but I know the work that goes into putting things like that together where you distill, like, Years and years of work that you've spent working with clients and taking big concepts and trying to break them open, make them accessible, and so I'm so grateful that you would Offer that. Is there anything else that you wanted to say about imposter syndrome or add to this conversation that you didn't get a chance to yet? Well, I think this is something we kind of hinted at, but just I wanna say really directly, no matter What liquid your sponge has been soaking in, no matter what life experiences you've been having, no matter what your internal experience is like, no matter what your, You know, socialization wise, you can change it. You have so much power at this moment and moving forward. And you are not stuck with the experiences you've had heretofore. They're gonna be part of your life, But you can make big and small changes, and I think that's so fun and exciting. I love it. I'm so glad you said that, and it's the perfect place to end for today. Thanks, Cori Lynn. You are so welcome.