Episode 58: Stories from Inside Stop People Pleasing Group Coaching Program

This episode features conversations I did with four current participants of my Stop People Pleasing group coaching program: Natalie Hagwood, Elizabeth Sherman, Kelly True, and Gini Ewart. I hope that by hearing their stories, you're inspired to see what is possible for you, and take a little peek into some of the things that I teach. When each participant joins, I ask them the same questions about their experience. I feel like it helps potential participants to see firsthand accounts of how the program worked for others. We talk about what the program’s been like for them, the hesitations they may have had at first about joining, what has surprised them the most about the process of uncovering their people pleasing, what tools from the program have been most helpful, and what they would tell someone who’s thinking about joining. 

After you listen, if you want to practice some of the same things I’ve taught in the program, use the link in the show notes to get added to my free Facebook group. On March 25 - 27, I’m going to be doing a free 3-day challenge to teach you how to say no, or whatever it is you’re avoiding saying - and not die. In 3 short, practical sessions, I’ll teach you what you need to know. Then on April 1st, we’ll get together for a bonus free coaching session to cover what the experience was like for you. I hope to see you there!

Find Sara here:
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What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

Transcript

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You are listening to the ex good girl podcast, episode 58, what you're about to hear first appeared as lives on my Instagram account. A few months ago, there are conversations that I had with several participants of my group coaching program, and they're women just like me and you. And I hope that by hearing their stories, you're inspired to see what is possible for you. And you get to take a little peek into some of the things that I teach. After you listen, if you want to practice some of the same things I have taught them, use the link either in my Instagram bio or in the show notes to get added to my free Facebook group. Because on March 25th, 26th and 27th, I'm going to be doing a free three day challenge that is going to teach you how to say no, or whatever it is you're avoiding saying, and not die. In three short, really practical sessions, I'm going to teach you what you need to know. Then you're going to have the weekend to practice. And then we're going to come back on Monday, April 1st, no joke. And you'll get an hour of free coaching. Enjoy the episode. The reason that I keep going live is because I want all of you to hear from the actual participants. I feel like their stories and their transformations are the most important. So this morning, I have Natalie Hagwood joining me and. She is going to be talking about her experience when each participant comes on, I just ask them the same questions about their experience, because I feel like in their own words, it's easiest for people who are considering joining to kind of see like, well, this really worked for me. Hi, Natalie. So you are a member of the current stop people pleasing group coaching cohort. Was there any reason in the beginning? While you were like, I just don't know if this will work for me. I think one of my, my first fears was people pleasing my way through the group. And I remember bringing that fear to you, like I'm going to get an A plus and I'm going to make Sarah so proud. Yeah. Yeah. So how have you managed that? How have I helped you manage it in any way? What have you had to do? Because you're right. Pay money to join a course to just people please. Your way through it. That's not what we want to be doing. Yeah, exactly. I think a lot of that has to do with the way that you've set it up. There isn't homework that is, you know, going to be known by the group so that, you know, that so and so turned theirs in or not. And, um, By setting it up to where everyone starts out with a celebration, there isn't any sense of like, oh, well, they're doing, they're doing worse than me because there's this level playing field of we're coming to the group, sharing how we've grown the celebrations are honestly my favorite part because our brains are not programmed like. For really good survival reasons, our brains are programmed to always see what's going wrong. What could trip us up, what's not working, what we need to get better at. And that's like the negativity bias that our brains are born with because that helps us survive. And so what has it been like for you to focus on celebrating? It's so huge. Um, the, the word that keeps coming To my mind when I think about, uh, how this course has shaped my relationship with myself is compassion. And I, I think when you come from a mindset of celebration, you're looking for, um. You're looking for acknowledgement and you're looking for the ways that you've grown, um, which as you said is not, not the way that we've been conditioned and, um, yeah, I think that tenderness and that acknowledgement, um, has, yes, cultivated such a better relationship with my, my inner self. Yeah. One. Thank you. One of the things that I've loved that I've seen you celebrate is just acknowledging like, I really am uncomfortable with this people pleasing, like I am deeply uncomfortable with it and just that's a celebration because it's telling ourselves the truth about how really Stuck. We feel in people pleasing. And I think a lot of the times when we are naturally cheerful, optimistic people, like I think you and I both are, and we'd like being cheerful, optimistic. We're like, no, no, no, it's fine. It's actually, it's okay. No, no, no. It's not a problem. I'm fine. Everything's fine. And so to tell the truth, like, I actually hate this feeling. I am so resentful. I am so like just under the surface. I am so angry, but I just put on this nice pretty face and keep going. That's one of the things that I have seen you do consistently that I think has really opened things up for you. Can you tell me a little bit about how telling the truth about that has opened things up for you? Oh yeah. Yeah. Emotional awareness, uh, has been one of the most transformational aspects of being in this group. One of the members was saying a while back, I almost looked at it as a superpower as how out of touch I was with my emotional self. I thought, wow, I'm so, so even keeled. I just, you know, walk through any, you know, chaotic situation with such a, you know, but I realized that was just like a numbness and a totally out of touch. Uh, place with myself. So it's been really new to, um, actually pay attention to my emotions, especially if they're in the realm of anxiety, resentment, anger, in particular. Um, we're so trained to see those as bad and just try to escalate them. Yeah, immediately. Yes. Um, being with those emotions has, uh, been radical for me because it's helped me get to know my, my, my truer self because I mean, listening to those emotions and giving, A space for them. Um, I, I actually get closer to learning about, you know, what do I actually like? What do I want? Um, which is one of the things I think people please are so struggle with having any knowledge about. What have you discovered that you want? I knew from the start of joining the group that I wanted to be able to trust myself. Um, I was definitely at a point where I felt like I was giving my power away in so many aspects of life. And I noticed how, how difficult that was for me and for my relationships. And I knew I wanted there to be trust in myself and with others. And when you're not rooted, When you're, when you're so extended in people pleasing, your sense of self and trust in who you are is so far from reach. Um, and I think it, it cultivates a deeper, deeper relationships. And I think that was something I really wanted to dive into. What has been well, and you have done such an amazing job with that, with just really trusting yourself to know that, like, for example, this discomfort, this anger, it means something. And it's such a switch because you're right. Women are programmed away from anger and resentment and frustration because it's. It's bad, it's mean, it's, um, it's unladylike, feminine, you know, and, and like you and I, we have like a, a shared, uh, background with religion telling us women should not be angry. Women should be submissive. Women should be nice and kind and serviceable. And so what? Um, in making that switch from like ignoring and pretending to recognizing and honoring your anger, your resentment, your more like negative emotions, which, right, there are no negative emotions because they all just have information for us. What's been hard? Hmm. Well, even just that acknowledgement and sitting with me. Those emotions is probably one of the hardest parts. Uh, tolerating discomfort emotionally, I think is a trend for, for people pleasers. And. It permeates even into relational elements. It's tolerating, you know, someone's disappointment when you stand up for what you need. Yes. I, I really think that those, those moments of discomfort are the hardest parts and the only way through. So I think that the, the actual, like the, the action elements of disappointing people. And being very uncomfortable, um, have been the, yeah, uncomfortable with one's emotions, the situation, conflict. I think those have been the hardest part, which is so interesting because people pleasers are so used to just living with constantly disappointing themselves. Disappointment is an emotion we're used to. So we're just used to being the ones who were disappointed because we're. Accommodating and pretzeling ourselves and shoving our opinions down and pasting on, you know, that the smile when we really want to cry or rage or, you know, yell. Um, so I, I mean, I, I really. I really understand that, uh, difficulty of like just accepting and sitting with. It's a different kind of discomfort. I'm really used to feeling disappointed myself. It's just interesting for me to tolerate watching someone else be disappointed in me. Right. It's crazy. Almost like we're, we're numb to it because we're so used to this at pointing ourselves that it's, it's almost like not even painful anymore. Cause it's, yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. It is not even painful anymore except for the fact that we're constantly resentful points. Yes. Yeah. So can you remember like what did you used to do to kind of alleviate all of that resentment and frustration and sadness? A big thing for Me was distraction and busyness. Um, when I started to feel those emotions creep up, it was like, do the next thing to either, to, to, to ultimately please someone else. It was like this, this cycle of, well, as long as I'm getting points from these people, or if I just like go and, you know, clean something even, um, yeah, just total disregard. Guard and distraction, I think, or, or numbing out, uh, things like social media and television and, um, even overeating that those are really. Yeah. Places I will go when I'm trying to avoid, um, discomfort. You bring up such an interesting point and I can see it in myself too is like if I feel bad, I'll just go please someone else to get like that little dopamine hit and then it kind of keeps me going, but then it wears off and I have to go please someone else and someone else and someone else. And so what. What do you, where do you feel like your biggest growth has been? It really has been emotional awareness. I, I cannot remember having a sense of self in this, just even body awareness and how emotions show up in, in our bodies. I think. I'm noticing like I'm walking through the world with a different lens. I think like that idea of from the head up, like when you're, when you walk through the world, just in your mind, I think that's how I've been walking through the world and I can feel that awareness kind of dropping into like my chest and throat and, um, It's allowed me to slow down. Like when you talk about pausing as one of the first steps in stopping to people, please. That is the element that emotional awareness has brought into my life because I'm, I'm listening to a whole different part of me that I've been finding is the more authentic part of me. I mean, I love that so much. I love that so much. I feel like it. You're, you're a product of how we are trained to be like up here. Logical makes sense. Be well researched. Have all your, you know, your reasons. There is so much. Much more information in our emotions because we can't talk them into what we want them to be right if we're scared, it's because we're having a real genuine nervous system, emotional response and up here. We can kind of talk ourselves into anything. I love. I love how, um, how you described like it kind of is like dripping down or like becoming more accessible to you. That is just, that's everything because emotions at first can seem like, oh my gosh, a little wild, a little unwieldy. But once you become friends with them, you're like, oh, you're here because you have. Some information for me. That's when it takes off. What do you want to say about that? Yeah, it's like those messages that I've noticed when you allow that message to be received in the moment. It's like you're, it's the whole idea of like a stitch in time saves nine, like you're, you're, you're, you're keeping the house clean and your resentment like meter. And I've, I've noticed that in particular in my, in my marriage, just how I would disregard disregard. And, but. Those things are still there and then, you know, they'd be piling up the resentment and then it would be that big explosion. But I love this feeling of like, when I, in the moment, listen to not my mind that is, has the conditioning to constantly pull me out of those, uh, authentic wants or needs. When I listen to my emotions, I'm, I'm keeping up on the resentment meter. I'm not, there's nothing that's piling up as I, and then there's nothing. Nothing to distract from. There's nothing to go overeat to make you feel better about, right? You're not running around trying to please other people just to get a dopamine little hit so that you, you feel better. You just get to be. I, I love that. Um, what feels possible for you now that didn't feel possible before you did this? I think intentionality. Is something that always was like strange for me, because if you are intentional, it means that you actually have an idea of what you want. That word always was confusing to me. And like I've wrestled with it because, um, I was so out of touch with what I wanted. Um, and I think I'm because of the pausing and the awareness that's been growing in me, I think I'm, I'm making decisions that better reflect what I What I actually want, um, and I, yeah, I'm slowing down before just that immediate. Yes. Response to, um, you know, career opportunities, relational, um, opportunities, just that slowing down that pausing that extra element of listening is helping me to go forward in life with. Closer intention. Yeah, I, I totally. How can you be intentional when at any moment you're willing to compromise and accommodate for anyone who needs anything from you? It's, it's, it's a hard thing. I just also want to congratulate you because you have taken on some hard conversations. Being honest in relationships and being honest about what you want and don't want. And because that really strikes at, or gets to the core of like wanting to be loved and accepted and wanting to be safe. I've just seen you manage that with so much grace and determination. That's, that's what I love about. Having, getting the chance to work with you is like, once you see it, you are so determined to try something, which typically would have been hard for you. And I think that's a big reason why you've made so much progress. So it has just been such an honor and pleasure to be able to work together. I just, I think you're amazing. Oh. Thank you so much, Sarah. It's been such a gift to be in this group. What would you say to anyone who is considering joining Stop People Pleasing? I would say that you are worth it, and that as a people pleaser, it's so easy to find ways out of doing things for yourself. And that If you really see people pleasing as a core issue in your life, it permeates every part of your life. So going to that core place, um, there's really no like value ticket you can put on it. It's, it's really priceless. Yeah. I think that's the main, main thing I would say. Well, Natalie, thank you for being here, for answering my questions, for being amazing, for showing up, doing the work, and for letting other people know about your experience. I appreciate it. I'll see you next week. See ya. Bye bye. I would love to have a conversation with you. If you have any interest at all in how it works, what your life can look like after going through the program, use the link in my bio to find a time for us to talk and I'll get you set. Bye bye. Today, I am going to be joined by Elizabeth Sherman. She is a current participant in Stop People Pleasing and she and I are going to have a conversation about what it has been like for her because one of the things that And what is really important for you to understand if you are considering joining is, what's it like? And she's going to tell you a little bit about what that is like for her. So here she comes. Hi. Hi there. I am so excited to be here with everyone today. Well, this is incredible for me because, um, it's exactly the second time that I've ever gone live So all of my worries were just about like getting you on thank you so much for being willing to Come on and talk a little bit about what it's been like for you to be in this round of stop people pleasing Yeah. Yeah. So I remember when we did our, um, our, our call, our consult, that you asked me, why did I want to do this container? And I remember saying to you that, You know, since I am a coach and I have lots of coaches available to me, um, I just wanted to be a freaking hot mess. I wanted to be a hot mess and have someone else like just coached me because I 100 percent believe in the power of coaching and your coaching has just been so transformative. It's been so powerful. loving and safe, and I have learned just so much from you in the time that we've been together. It's been just amazing. So everyone who's listening, you have to do this program. Tell me what are some of the biggest takeaways, things Yeah. So I was, um, doing a little prep work for our live here and I have just learned so much, like I can go through every single week and tell you that I had a huge aha moment from the very first week when we talked about feeling. different emotions in our bodies. And I mean, yeah, I know this stuff, but just the way that you presented it and calming my nervous system has just been a huge takeaway. I've been really, um, on this journey of stopping people pleasing for a while now. And I know that it's going to be something that I'm still going to be doing in the future. Um, but this has been such a gift because. I can see now that every single time that I was activated, like my brain would start spinning and I would feel like something was wrong with me and I just needed to like cower into a corner, that that was really just my nervous system being activated because I was bumping up against something that I wanted. and not being able to either ask for it or, or get it. Yeah. So that was the first big piece. I know that another thing, did you want to talk about that before I moved on? You know, I just, yeah, I just want to say something quickly because I think that as women who are a I mean, I'm 50 and you and I are around the same age. I think by the time we get, you know, past 30, we have this relationship with our people pleasing of like frustration. We're like, why can't I, I'm a grown ass woman. Why can't I just ask for the thing, do the thing. And so that tension, we feel it, but we don't know how to resolve it because what we don't realize is that we are bumping up against literally feeling safe. and connected and that when safety and connection are threatened, we will usually go back to whatever behavior will get us those things because we don't know how to negotiate anything else because since we were very, very young, that's what we've been going after safety and connection. So what you're describing is bumping up against Wanting something, but feeling like it threatens safety and connection. And I don't know how to negotiate that. So I just back all the way off, but then I beat myself up like, what's the matter with me? Why can't I just, and that is just such a classic, um, you know, cycle that we find ourselves in as women, where we want to make progress. We want to do bigger things, but we don't know how to negotiate the discomfort of it. Yeah, and you just said something right there that I, I didn't realize until now, which was a huge takeaway was the, the reason why we do everything is because of belonging and connection and that has really informed a lot of my. My beating myself up or my reflection on why did I do that? And so like the other piece that, you know, you always bring to coaching is that makes sense. And so really being able to make sense of my action. the past because I was trying to create connection. I was trying to have belonging and being able to see that now from the other side. It is such a switch because as young children, we have to belong to the people around us. We need them to take care of us. We need them to look after us. We need them to support us and, and help us. Literally survive, but we never are taught how to belong to ourselves. Some, some women figure it out, right? Um, I, I wasn't figuring it out on my own and constantly looking outside of me for what do you think of me? Do you think I'm okay? What do you, what's your opinion of my life? Do you think I'm doing this right? And so that switch to belonging to me first, how has that opened up? Opportunities for you. Yeah, that's a really good question. Um, I something that you just said was the safety in myself first. So really having your own back and I don't have it all the time, but I'm definitely better than I was. So knowing that I can be safe with myself, meaning. For those of you who haven't done this work, meaning that when I make a decision, understanding that it's what I want and what I want is okay and not needing anyone else to validate that and not being mean to myself when I, when things don't work out, like, I thought that they were going to be so not being a jerk to myself. And so that's really been important in creating safety for myself emotionally and mentally. Yeah. One of the things that I say, and I'll say at any time I get the chance to, is that if we cannot be safe with ourselves. We're not safe anywhere. So if I am the one who's going to beat myself up, if I'm the one who's going to judge and criticize and second guess and doubt my decisions, like I live with me all the time, it's like living with my own bully. And so. Being able to at least make the switch to everything could go to shit and I am not going to pile on my own judgment for that I think is one of the most transformational revolutionary things that can happen for a woman because what that means is. Now I can go back to those moments where what I want is rubbing, bumping up against my need for safety and connection, and I can take a risk. I can say something clearly and kindly or clearly and directly. I can ask for something, and then if it doesn't go well, I have me. I know that I am that safe place for me, and I know that at the very least, even if it fails spectacularly, I will not add to my own misery by being unkind to myself. So I think, gosh, if I could just like put something in the water for everyone to have, it would be that. Even if everything goes terribly, I will be a safe and good place for me. So it just makes me want to cry hearing you say, uh, talk about that transformation for you. Um, all of the topics that we've kind of talked about has one that has stuck out as really important for you or valuable for you. I think that the one Lesson that gave me the biggest, like, aha, and where all of a sudden I saw all of the pieces being put together was when we were talking about roles in the family and it was just like, Oh, now all of this makes sense. And so really understanding. So for those of you who. Are watching, um, Sarah, a detail seven different archetypes for how we people, please. And I identified as this invisible or the underachiever, um, which is like, when I tell my friends about it, they're like, how is that possible? You do all these things and I still don't know. But anyway, um. It really just made everything seem so close or made everything make sense because I would find, for example, that when I would, uh, be on stage speaking that I would completely check out. And so what that was doing was it was bumping up. My need for invisibility to being seen. And so that was a huge aha moment. And it's something that I'm still working through and seeing my place in the story or in the story of my family, um, that, that whole roles and rules, the rules that we grew up with were huge in, um, understanding my people pleasing. I. I totally agree, because when I began to do this work first for myself, it felt like understanding the roles that I had either been assigned or taken on so that I could be loved and the rules that all of the, like, my church group, my family group, my school group, we have so many rules and understanding All of those was like being let into like central command, right? Where you see this whole, all these webs of just things that you've been living in that were invisible. Like I just thought I was a helpful. Person and I am a helpful person and I enjoy that but when I traced it back like that's how I got love and connection and recognition and rewards and Attention and so of course I did that of course and so you achieved to get recognition other people Play small and pretend like they don't have needs. And there's a combination of a lot of these things, but it really kind of feels like seeing the invisible matrix. I guess that's about, you know, the invisible matrix that we've just grown up in and it helps us. It makes sense, and it helps us, I think, have a lot of compassion, which I just don't think I mean, have you ever changed? Have you ever permanently changed anything, beating the crap out of yourself and dousing yourself with shame? No, no. And here's what I tell my clients is it's like, so let's try it the other way. If that doesn't work, you can always go back to beating yourself up, right? Yeah. Yeah. If, if, if with compassion and some, some self understanding and self trust doesn't work, you can always go back to shame and beating yourself up. Brilliant. I'm going to use that, but it helped me to see that truly the only way to change this is through compassion and self understanding and creating me as a safe place for me. Is there any? Yeah, and go ahead. You first. Oh, I was just gonna say that, you know, we've, we talked about this on our podcast, I think about, um, you know, being the cool girl being the one who's low maintenance. And I think that that's, That's something that we are all socialized with is you don't want to be high maintenance. You don't want to ask too much. You don't want to want too much. And so that's where all of our people pleasing comes in. And for those of you who are people pleasing, be aware that like this is how you've been raised. Right. And of course you're. This way, but you can change and we can see a way out. Yeah. Is there anything that has surprised you? Hmm. Um, that has surprised me. Well, I'd like to say that it surprised me that it wasn't going to be easier, but I, you know, when we're butting up against. I mean, I'm 55, so, you know, however many years of socialization, like, this stuff is difficult, but it is changing. Changing and my dedication to wanting something better for myself is all that I really need. So that it's doable, but not easy, correct? Is that? Yeah. Well, you know, anything worth having is going to take some, some work, right? Yeah. Anything worth having that's really important to you is going to need some dedication and focus. Yeah. So what have you seen in yourself that is worth having? Oh, it's, you know, I don't want to say that it's like that I don't care about other people's opinions, but other people's opinions matter less. And my opinion actually matters way more and what I want, you know, yesterday's call, we were talking about wanting, and this morning I was doing a little bit of journaling, and I realized that the emotions that I grew up with, which are really tough for me, disappointment, Resentments and frustration. Those three emotions I realized this morning when I was journaling, I was like, Oh, wait, those all come from wanting, right. And not being able to have either by, you know, it not working out or there's something in your way or you're not asking for it. And I was like, Oh, I get it now. So what I'm hoping is that I can want. And actually achieve what I want through the work that we've been doing together and it's okay for me to want, uh, I just have chills because that is, I believe that our wanting is the truest compass that we have and that it's not always going to point the direction to the exact destination. For example, like a lot of times I, I said this yesterday, I love chocolate and I want chocolate all the time. And as I have sat with that desire, it's about so many other things. It's about pleasure. It's about slowing down. It's about having something that feels like a, like a treat just for myself. It's about something that I, it's about having a reward. And so I love that this wanting the discussion we had yesterday is. Kind of rolling around in your mind, because I feel like the more we sit with what we want as women, it is the surest director to the kind of big life that we want. Um, has there anything, has there been anything in the current round of Stop People Pleasing that has been hard for you? Well, so, okay. Yes. Yes. No. Um, I know that this is my own thoughts, but it. It goes back to the wanting thing. So we have a Facebook group and I've been posting in it a lot. And what I wanted to post this morning about the disappointment and resentment and frustration, but I was like, No, Elizabeth, because that the other women are just going to be irritated with you. It's like that whole you're being too much thing, right? Yeah. And so I acknowledge that it's a thought. I acknowledge that it's a story that I have going on in my head. Um, and so I think that that's been the biggest surprise of what I've, what has been hard in terms of the group is wanting to have that connection, wanting to have that belonging and not wanting to be too much. For the other women in the group, there is so much self policing that we do as women. We have these arbitrary standards, these arbitrary limitations that we don't ever because I bet if I were to ask you, well, how many times to post is too much? Is it 10 times? Is it 11 times? Is it 12 times? Is it nine times? It would be a very arbitrary number. But what that says to me is that you have a history of being told you're too much. You're taking up too much space. You're talking too much. You're sharing your opinion too much. Just talk less, be less, be smaller, and that that's what you had to do to get love and connection. And you and I share this commonality of, um, you know, we kind of named it the cool girl, which is where we pretend like we don't really care about things. Like, I don't really want big things because if I don't get it, then I won't be sad. Or if it gets taken away from me, I didn't really want it that much anyway, so it's totally fine. I'm fine. It doesn't matter. And so trying to look cool, like I'm kind of aloof and above it, but I really, really care inside and I really want connection and belonging and then self policing. Those are two of the things that really box us in and actually work against us because every time you post, what actually happened? Well, I guess. And potentially I help someone else through what I've talked about. Yeah. Well, because I'm in the group too, I know everybody jumps on and is like, Oh my gosh, I feel that too. Or thank you so much for posting that. Or I learned this from what you commented. So having a community of women, I think is ideal for this work. Because number one, you, you bump up against those feelings. Right. You, we bump up against the self policing that we do. And then we also get to overcome that and then learn together and heal together. We get to cheerlead each other. We get to contribute not only to our own healing and, and progression, but to the healing and progression of everyone else who is there. Was there anything that you, that might've stopped you from joining Stop People Policing? No, I don't think so. I was really ready for it. I needed it. Yeah. Yeah, and I'm 100 percent glad. I mean, looking at everything that's happened in my life over the past six months, I mean, you've been there, and I feel like I have been a hot mess. I have been bringing all of my problems to the group, and it's really been amazing. Such a safe place and such a an amazing container. Yeah, when you say hot mess Right. I I understand that that is your way of Trying to almost pre apologize Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like I'm gonna say it before you can say it I'm gonna call myself this before you can say it but truly You That is more of that conditioning of like, don't be too much. Don't have too many problems. Like there's a right number of problems to have, and there's, there's a wrong number and I don't want to have too many problems and be perceived as the hot mess. But here's what I would say. I've said it to you and I will say it to any woman listening. I believe anyone who wants to do this work of learning how to stop people pleasing and stop perfectionating, you'll figure it out. Right. If you want it, you're going to keep following that path. Um, I would just be so honored if you would consider letting me, allowing me to be, uh, walking alongside of you on that path. I've figured a few things out. I think I have a couple of really helpful tools. I think it's an amazing program. And I think that one of my My favorite things to do is to see women stop apologizing, stop describing themselves as hot messes, stop, um, apologizing for taking up space and for saying and doing the things that they want to do and to feel at home in their life and like they are creating the, whatever the life is that they want to do. One of my favorite exercises to do That I probably did with you on the consult call that we had, and anyone who is watching now or sees this later, I want you to just do a quick mental tally with me. Number one, how many hours A day. Do you spend ruminating, worrying, spinning about past conversations where you wish you would have said something different? Second, guessing your decisions, overthinking decisions that need to be made, but you are afraid to choose the wrong decision, walking on eggshells because you're afraid that you have. Made someone mad for most women. Do you remember what you, what your number was Elizabeth? I don't, I don't, but you know, for most women in midlife, it probably happens all at three o'clock in the morning. That's true. For a lot of us, it wakes us up. That anxiety wakes us up. But for most women it's between three to six hours a day. Yeah. That their brain is just in that spin cycle of self doubt and second guessing and criticism. Their bodies are doing other things, driving a carpool and working, whatever, um, but that's a really important number to keep an eye on because if you take, let's take the low end, three hours times seven days a week, that's 21 hours a week times 52 weeks a year. That's 1092 hours a year that you lose. It's, you just like. Waste all of this energy in people pleasing and that's not even all of it because you are, you are, um, Oh, a wellness coach, you know, all about the second number, which is how many hours do you spend distracting yourself, dismissing your emotions or dealing with all of that discomfort by scrolling on Netflix by eating. Drinking, distracting, shopping. I was a big shopper, so that's, that's kind of how I did it. And for most women, it's about two to four hours a day. Yeah. So you have to add that to the numbers and it quickly adds up to thousands of hours a year that we are feeling terrible and then trying to distract ourselves from feeling terrible. And not creating the life that we want to be having because so much of that brain space and time and energy, which are, we don't get that back once it's gone, it's gone. We're not using that to move forward and create what it is that we really want to be creating, going back to school, starting a business, getting a divorce or making our current relationship better repairing relationships with children. Thank you. Doing the things that we want to be doing. And so when I say that when women learn to stop people pleasing, it is a revolution, I really mean it. And I would be really honored. If anyone listening wants to talk with me about joining that revolution and taking that journey for themselves, Elizabeth, is there anyone? Is there anything you would say to someone who was considering joining Stop People Pleasing? I would say just hop on a consult. I mean, you don't want to coach anyone who doesn't want to be coached, right? Right. Yeah. So, like, there's no harm in doing that. You can find the link for a consult in my bio. Um, it will just say book a consult or find a time. You can find a time on my calendar that works for you. I look forward to talking to anyone who has any questions on a consult call. Yeah. Have a great week, everyone. Join Stop People Pleasing. You have to. Thanks. See you soon. Bye bye. I am so excited to have the opportunity to talk with Kelly. She has agreed to come on and talk about her experience. So you are a current participant in the round that is meeting right now. And I, my first question is just, what has it been like for you? It's been wonderful. It's been wonderful to have these types of conversations with women. Um, and also just the way that you approach it from such a heart centered place of we make sense. And of course we feel this way and think this way and react this way and do these things. Um, and there've been so many moments in either watching someone else get coached. Or like working through the material of that week where I've just been like, Oh God, I just need to sit with what you just said for a second and really let it permeate. Yeah. It's just been been like a surprisingly and like really surprisingly, you wouldn't think that people pleasing would be like heart work, but it really is. And that has been the most rewarding and the sweetest and the funnest. Um, and I think the most impactful part of all of this work so far, well, it thrills me to hear you say that because that that's what I discovered. Like this isn't brain work. If we could just up here, rewire and say no, when we want to say no, share our opinion when we feel afraid, um, stand up for ourselves when we don't feel like we can, uh, it would be a lot easier, but it is so connected to feeling safe and feeling like. Like we have belonging and love and friendship and connection. So it, it's a lot of it is, is heartwork. Has there been any part of it for you that has been surprising either in how hard it was or how easy it was? Yeah, I, I think where I was, cause I would not describe myself as a people pleaser, honestly. Um, I think, I joined because I love you and I love your work. Um, and I wanted to work with you. And then we got into the nitty gritty and it was like, Oh my gosh, I am people pleasing in like little and big ways all over the place, especially in my parenting. That was the biggest. Whoa. For me, you know, I'm a single parent. I'm an entrepreneur. I maintain a household. Um, and so the people pleasing, like, I really was kind of using people pleasing. I am still human right here, right? Yeah, using people pleasing my daughter, like, as a Hoping mechanism and parenting and just life in general to like, get through the day without a fight or to get through the day and maintain the relationship and the connection, which was having me not on our boundaries that were important to me. That is the biggest struggle. Um, the people pleasing with the tiny human. That's like the most important to me. Ways in my business, which I people please also, which shows up for me and overworking in, in putting in too much time, putting in, you know, a lot of hours really overing, um, in ways that like my just productive corporate training brain is like, no, this is good. And this is the way we do it. And this is the way it should be. Burn yourself to the ground. Give everything you have. All of those things. Um, so those are the two that stand out the most for me. Yeah. What's interesting to me is knowing you and I knew you, you know, before you joined and you are such a loving, um, heart centered person. What have you found in terms of the tools that we have used that I've taught that have been most helpful for you? Yeah, I'll be totally honest. I really resist inner child work because that's such a tender, vulnerable place for me. It just. Um, like as much as inner child work is heart work because of my past, it feels dangerous. Like, like my brain knows that it's not, but my system is like danger, danger, danger. Don't go there. Yeah. And so, um, That is, that's been the one I continue to go to slowly sink into slowly where I have to bring the most tenderness to myself and the most grace to myself and patience to like do it imperfectly. Do it inconsistently. Um, yeah, it's the, it's working with my inner girl who I love so much, but I still, I still can feel that trepidation of do of, of going there, of like going there. And just for some context for people who are listening to the reason we go to inner art, Our inner child, which is, which is the collection of fears and ideas and beliefs that were instilled in us when we were really young is because that's when we learn to people. Please. Right? That's when we learned. Oh, I have to trade either this behavior. Or this part of myself to get love and belonging. Totally. And so that's where it heals. And that's why, to your point earlier, we can't heal it up here because, you know, I learned very young that overworking was the way to be seen and to get praise. Same. Yeah. And so you and I are in our offices at seven o'clock at night. Right. Because we're literally still trying to earn that love and respect. And now it's just from different people. Now it's just from clients. Yeah. But to go inward and to tell that little us that little you and that little me, you are worthy no matter how much you work, like your worthiness has nothing to do with how much you work. That can be really, really tender. Yeah. Yeah, and, and my brain wants to fight me on it all of the time because I have this, you know, this inner hustler from being in Silicon Valley for 25 plus years where, like, you're applauded if you're still online at 11 o'clock at night, answering, Emails and solving problems and pulling rabbits out of hats. I got so much validation and like self patting myself on the back. Right. So I got it externally and I got it internally. And so that dopamine hit of value and productivity, where do I go to get that? Right. How do I generate that for myself in other healthy ways? That's like the eternal entrepreneurial struggle for me as someone who's Like I said, like 25 years in Silicon Valley, um, and then moving into, you know, being an entrepreneur and a coach, you just have to do it differently. And my brain, Fights me all the time. Yeah, because it worked right. We work and I have so much proof. Yeah. I have decades of proof that it works. Yes. And, and, and I guess we should define worked. It produced for that time what you wanted. Exactly. Yes. The fields, all of the accolades, all of that stuff. My brain just like gobbles all of it up. Yeah. and the reason we know it's not working anymore. It's because we're tired and we can't stop working to relax, right? Our mind is constantly going to what else, what else, what else, what else? Who needs what? Yeah. And so. Oh, right. There's like that resentment of like, um, we want the validation and the. And the accolades, like, our, our brain just loves all of that stuff, but what's going on, like, my brain wants this, but what's going on inside is like this churning of dissatisfaction that shows up in all the emotions, right? Resentment, overwhelm, anxiety, um, that those up late at night thoughts. I mean, all of that stuff. Yeah, it does not. It doesn't work. No matter what my brain. Tries to tell me about and so for a lot of women, especially it's moving from past ways of being hustling, overworking, showing up, doing extra serving, giving, loving, constantly looking for the ways to give. It's moving away from that. Into what do I really want, what do I really need? And so what have you discovered kind of in the course of that journey for you as something either surprising, like, oh, I didn't know, like, I just, this is a kind of a vulnerable thing for me. I love to sing and dance. Can I sing and dance? I can't. I'm not very good at it yet, but there is just something about singing and dancing that opens up this joyful part of me. I would not have guessed that I wanted that so badly and that I actually need it as much as I do. And I'm still figuring out how to kind of get over my embarrassment of it to give that to myself more. Has there been anything that has come up in your Wanting or in this journey away from that overworking that has been surprising for you or delightful or unexpected. Yeah, that's a really great question. Um, because you know, I want to love and I want to give and I want to contribute. Right. And I want to do all of that from. Like a healthy perspective where I'm also caring for me and tending to me and my insides. Oh, that, that's been one thing that I haven't quite figured out yet. Um, I love to write. I love to write. I love taking pictures. Like there's this whole creative side of me that is. Dying to play again, um, and to be expressed again, Sarah, I have boxes like bankers boxes full of just papers where I let myself write. And in the back of my head is this conversation about my writing has to be productive and I have to get it out into the world and I have to share it. And, um, of course there's perfectionism that like weaves its way in there. As well, but, um, I write letters to God and I've been thinking about like, I, I, I keep them for me. Right. I've been doing it as a practice for years since like 2019, I think. And, um, and I write down my thoughts and then I write down thoughts that aren't mine, but are coming through me is two different color pens. So that when I go back to it, I can distinguish them. And I've been thinking, should I put these out into the world and what I, I do want to, but what I've had to do is give myself permission to keep them for me for as long as feels right. And so, yeah, like I'm. Water coloring. I'm coloring with crayons. Um, I'm playing more games with my daughter. Like there's just this lightness and playfulness that has come alongside. Also those inner spiritual things that make my life joyous and connect me to wonder and awe, which I think is my way into like a safe way into the inner child work also. Yeah. I have no idea if I answered your question. No, you, it was, It was beautiful because one of the things that I, I talk about a lot, um, and actually have a podcast coming out about it next week is that our wanting, I believe is our truest guidance. Yeah. And as women, we have so much programming around what we are allowed to want, what it's okay, what's okay for us to want. And so much practice, um, Editing that wanting so that it's okay. It doesn't inconvenience anybody else. Nobody else disagrees with that or think it's, it's silly or dumb or, um, inconvenient or, you know, just a bad, a bad use of time and energy. And so I love just having the conversation about like, what are you wanting lately and how, how is that guiding you? Because what I have found is that it might not even be like, I use this. Example a lot. Cause it's very true. Like I often want chocolate, like that's how it comes up. Like I want chocolate. I want something sweet. I want a treat, but if I sit with it for just a little bit longer, it's not actually the chocolate. It's like pleasure. It's something that is just for me. It is something that I take time to, um, either savor and, That's, that's just for me that I don't have to share with anyone else. And that is the true desire of that desire for chocolate is Sarah, slow down, give yourself some, some pleasure, something that you want. And so I feel like that's such an important part of the work that we do inside stop people pleasing is to reconnect to allowing ourselves to want to not judge our wanting and then to just see where it takes us. Was there any reason that you can remember now that would have stopped you from joining. Gosh, I think maybe conversations about And this is for me personally, right? Of conversations of people pleasing. I'm not a people pleaser. It's not a problem. I'm a coach. I've done my work. I, right. I love, I love inner work. I love outer work. I love development, but then. Just listening to you and, um, and the conversations that we've had, I was like, there could be something here. And I also just knew that I wanted to work with you. So those were the things that helped me get over any thing about, Like really not considering myself to be strong and sovereign and self governed and I'm the boss of me. And, you know, all of that stuff had me not even identify as a people pleaser. So I wouldn't put myself in a category of, I need this automatically until I really started looking and understanding the, like the myriad of ways that I It's obvious and totally freaking sneaky that people pleasing really does. Show up and show up for me personally, uh, look, look, I'm doing all over my life in space and being honest about, um, I don't want to, I don't want to do this anymore. This is while, while it may not be this like big problem in my life, it's a way of being that I don't want to cultivate. Right, and grow and expand. Yeah, right. Yeah, I'm just this around it. I don't want to deal with it. Yeah, because it actually takes your brain space, your energy, your effort, the spinning and the worrying and that's what I find because there are people who don't want to Identify like I'm a people pleaser and then there are others who, like you, there are strong. They are, um, single moms who are doing it. They're business owners there. And so I find that for them, the sneaky people pleasing is like, not feeling comfortable, like being worried about being canceled. If you say the wrong thing, yeah, I have that. Yeah, being worried about people being mad at you if you share an opinion that, you know, is not going to be like popular and, and I am not saying that we owe the world all of our opinions. Right? And, and that we don't need to take precautions for for safety. That's not what I'm talking about at all. But when it shows up with clients, when you're working late at night, because you don't feel like you've done enough for them, you need to do more when you're not able to to set a boundary. Right. And then actually stick to it. Yeah, there's something. Anything else there that I think we can benefit from because again, it when you and I are in our offices at 7 o'clock 8 o'clock at night. That's our actual life. Yes, we are spending overworking. That's our actual time. And, um, that's where I think we deserve as humans and as. Women to have the kind of life that we feel is aligned with what our bigger values are, which I know for you and I, it's not being in our office at eight o'clock at night, not. And, you know, I'll say one more thing. Um, I was such a people pleaser in the past when I was, when I was really, really heavy. I used to weigh 365 pounds. And my entire life was about, I'm so disgusting, I have to do anything I can to get people to like me so that I'll have, so that I can date, right? Like I have, there were all these ways I was just betraying myself and pretending, like I didn't even know what I wanted, who I was. It was like, I just, shit, shit. Shifted. Right. And I lost weight and I had to deal with all of that on my journey of losing the weight and then the years afterwards. So when this came around, I didn't identify. As a people pleaser, because I was so aware of how I was a people pleaser before I was like, no, no, no, I have that handled. And then you and I had a conversation and I was like, okay, maybe I don't have that handled. Maybe it's showing up again in different ways. And that's what this journey at this point, right? Almost 50 that that's what this people pleasing is looking like, where it's not my. Um, It's my hustle muscle and my relationship with my daughter, my little person where it was like, Oh gosh, this is, I need to deal with this. I need to. Well, yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that experience. If there are people who are thinking about joining, what would you tell them? I would tell them to get on a call with you because It's just so revealing and you're so generous with how you hold space and make sense of maybe what we are holding in judgment. Um, that it's just like a call full of grace and, and also really, really important ahas. I would tell someone just. Talk to Sarah. Just talk to Sarah. Well, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. If you are thinking about, uh, booking a consult call with me, I can promise you that it will be a life changing conversation, because my goal during that call is to make sure that I understand you, and that even if you decide to join the next group that you leave with, Some increased understanding of yourself and how your people pleasing shows up and some things that you can actually start doing. So there's a link in my bio that you can use to find my calendar and find a time that works for you. And I would love to talk to you. So Kelly, thank you so much for your time this morning and I'll see you next Tuesday. Yeah. See you. I am going to bring Ginny on. She is a current participant. You are in the current round of start people pleasing. Tell me, what were all the reasons why you weren't going to join? Were there any? Yes. I had lots of reasons not to join. And the biggest obstacle I could see was just having a conversation with my husband about whether it would be okay to, to join. And like that conversation was in itself, like if we're just talking about, you know, hopping on a consult call with you, that conversation in itself was. Powerful for me. Tell me, tell me why. Say more about why. Um, just because it was a, a safe place where I could kind of explore some of the things that were holding me back. And you ask such good questions that, um, that I had no idea. You know, I had an, in my mind, a story of. What my relationship with my husband was and through the questions that you asked just in that consult call I could see more clearly that it was more than just you know, like Uh rocky road in our in our marriage relationship and more about like what I thought about myself in my role with um My husband and what I thought about him and you know what I thought I needed to be Anyway that had just been It's developed through 25 years of marriage that I had, I had no idea until we had that conversation. Yeah. That, I mean, I have so much respect and understanding. It makes so much sense to me that as women who are taught all of these ideas about how we are with money, how we are with making decisions, like, do you really know what's best for you? Do you really know what you want? Do you really know how to best use resources? We defer a lot to the person in the relationship who we have been taught is better with money. Is better with decisions, does think these things out more logically, which if you are a woman married to a man, it's usually your husband. Right. And, and what I loved about our conversation is that I am never advocating for women making decisions without the input of the people that they love. I'm just asking you to consider is the person that you love, are you putting their opinion here and your opinion here? And what happens when we do this, when, what, Your opinion of what you need is just as important as their opinion about what you need. And just what changes in the dynamic? What do you feel uncomfortable asking for? What do you feel are the limitations that are placed on what you are allowed to want for yourself? And I feel like that What was such a powerful part of that consult that we did was just asking you to just see the limitations and then you can decide if you want to keep those limitations or if you want to begin to change the dynamic, which usually begins with being honest. So what was it that you had to be honest about? Oh, there's a whole bunch. There's a ton. But as you were just talking right there, one of the things that I was thinking about is like what I expected a group talking about, you know, ending people pleasing in our lives would be like, and I thought it would be more of like a search. Yeah, right? Like I'm instead of being in that one down position, like learning how to like be the one up position and that seemed like really uncomfortable to think about. But what it is not is that. Right? Like you've, you've really taught me how to like, assert myself and, and acknowledge what I want, but not at the expense of the people around me. And I really thought that that's what it had to be, you know, like, if, if I was to do that. speak up for what I want, then it means that somebody else isn't going to get what they want or they'll be disappointed. And sometimes that is true, but it's not like, like I'm trying to revolutionize my, my, you know, family experience and totally turn it on its head. It's just like finding Better balance where everyone can have their needs and their wants met. So that's what came up for me It was actually probably one of the best answers I've ever heard because I love how you use like one up and one down Language, I've never heard it said that way and I'm gonna steal it if that's okay with you Because I think we are so used to in our lives being being in the one down position, everybody else's needs are here and minor here. And it's my, this is good. This is being a good mom. This is being a good wife. This is being a good sister, a good daughter, a good employee. Like I'm constantly putting other people's needs and wants above my own. And most women think that Feminism or, you know, smash the patriarchy is where I'm now the one up and everybody else is one down and I'm calling the shots and I decide what goes and I say what's on my mind and everybody else gets in line and that's not it because that's just the opposite of That's just the opposite bad problem, right? But when we are equal, when, when what I want, when what I need matters just as much as you and we investigate our reasons and then sometimes I choose me and sometimes I choose you for reasons that I like. What I love is it's not about self assertion. It's about self knowing, self. trusting. And then sometimes there is some asserting, but it's the asserting if everybody's here and I'm here, it's, this is the asserting. It's like, I have to assert myself to be on the same level. So there is no, there isn't a one up or one down anymore. And it requires a little bit of vulnerability. Like one of the questions you asked me is what was hard. And that's probably what it was, right. That like, um, in order to assert myself, I have to know. Myself and be willing to look and be willing for other people to see me in like What I think is not my best Yeah, you know and And and that's super uncomfortable But I I actually through this process realized that maybe I was even god pleasing and not like Fully being honest and like vulnerable, even in my meditation and prayers. And so the process has really elevated, um, my ability to have a relationship with deity. Okay. And please say more about that. Fascinated by that. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I was looking back through my notes and I just, I remembered through, you know, kind of my journaling and, um, and some of the notes from our session, I realized that they, that they intertwined this, um, intersection of like me being able to have a relationship with God. Needing to be being willing to be seen, right? So, uh, one, one day in my prayers, um, and meditation, I just thought, like, the thought came to me, like, totally stopped. I really get emotional, but you know me, Sarah, you have such a beautiful heart and soul. My thought was. God, do you want to know me? And the answer came back, like, of course I do. And so it, it kind of released within me, like a power to be willing to let my husband know me, to let my friends know me and stop saying like, I'm fine. That is so powerful because what I, I actually kind of think you're talking about is, I mean, we have kind of a shared faith foundation and I think that pleasing some outer like entity like God was such a, such a huge part of my life. And I think still is, um, in, in a lot of really beautiful ways. I think when you say. God, do you, do you want to know me? I would imagine God saying, I already do. Do you want to know you? That's exactly what happened, right? It was like a release. Yes. Like I don't even have to pretend with you so I can stop pretending with me and hiding. Yes. Yeah. That is just incredible because it just solidifies for me. Like what we are doing is not It's not about taking over other people and being the boss of them and being selfish and being the the loudest person in the room. It's about deep self knowledge and trust, and that looks different for everybody. For some people it will mean standing up, being seen, you know, being louder, taking up more space, and for other people it will look very different. So how has it looked for you to know? Oh, yourself better. Yeah, I'll give you a really simple, um, real life example. Um, one of the sessions you said, uh, something like eliminating what I want in a problem. We're not even knowing or acknowledging what I want it. I'm eliminating. Real solutions. And I took that into my home and, you know, interacting with my children and trying to figure out like, if I want the house clean and you know, I have to, I have to figure out how that's going to happen. Right. And up until that point, it was like, well, nobody can do it the way that I can. If I ask them to do it, then, then I'll have to fight and I'd rather just clean than fight. And, you know, so I did a lot of wrestling and I came up with like, you know what, I'm just never going to empty the dishwasher again. And how is that going to happen? So I, you know, Had to tolerate a lot of discomfort at the beginning, but it was just, I, I, it's not even a request anymore. It's like the dishwasher needs to be emptied and you're going to empty it. So, Hey, you know, I still have to remind and things like that. And at the beginning it was a lot of like, should I just do it? You know, they're busy. And because I just decided that. You know, what I want is important and this is one tiny, tiny little way that I can get what I want. It's not even a fight anymore. I mean, we've been meeting for like, I don't know, three months, right? Three months. Yes. And it's like, not a fight at all in my brain ever. I don't waste any time or energy deciding who should empty the dishwasher and also the, the children in my house. It's not a fight for them. They just, Do it. Right. I just love what you said. When don't know yourself or when you take yourself out, you eliminate the best solutions, but it's so true. And so I think your brain, and this is what I love about every single person that I work with. You are the source of so much wisdom. You are the source of so many great solutions and connections for you. And I feel like what we do and stop people pleasing is I present some things. Is to consider and some strategies and some tools and then you take them in to your situation, your life, your values, your wants, your needs, and you create this beautiful change pattern. This way of seeing yourself in the world and you get to see you in this just completely beautiful new way. And Jenny, few people have done as, I don't want to say as good a job because it's not about doing a good job, but you have just done that in such a uniquely beautiful way. Yeah. Thank you. I love the, the container that you've created. For stop people pleasing and I was thinking about, you know, all the rest of the people who are also people pleasers and are miserable like I was and you know, there's tons of books. You can read. There's lots of instagram accounts with good information. In fact, when I hopped on here, you know, technology and whatever, like the real that came up was like, yeah, We're people pleasers. We don't say that and I was like how how bizarre that's the one that was up You know, there's tons and tons of information out there That you can read and listen to and um, you know, try and make the changes But there's nothing like having someone a coach Sarah Specifically for me, who has insight and perspective, you're able to kind of see around the corners of the blocks within me to like illuminate what's possible. And it just doesn't happen by reading a book or watching a reel. It happens in a coach client relationship. It happens. Specifically in a group coaching, when you watch someone else see something in themselves, and then you can see it within you as well. Yeah. It's just been a magnificent experience. Oh, I mean, nothing could make me happier because that is the coach. I do want to be someone who can just say, have you considered this or did you see this? Did you hear that you just said that? And then to have the, the women in the group, I think you can agree that The, the women who come to this work, it's because they want it, and I have, I actually fully trust that any woman who wants to stop people pleasing, she'll figure it out. Whether I'm a part of it or not, she will figure it out because she is that smart, that wise. And when we want something, we do it. We'll find it. It's just such an honor to me to be able to be that coach and have created this group and get to participate. Um, but I think the other women in the way that you learn from each other and you can see it, you can see it in someone else's behavior in a, in a way that you can't quite see it in your own, I think is really, really just gorgeous and beautiful. Is there anything else that you want to add to this conversation? I'm just so grateful. What would you say to someone who's on the fence about joining? Well, the only reason to stay on the fence is if you're willing to be miserable a little longer. If you're not, then just like hop off and make the decision. That is so good. And we're going to end right there, Jenny. That was perfect. I really appreciate your insight and your willingness. And for anyone who is listening, who's on the fence, just having a consult call with me is an opportunity. To have insight and some tools that you might not have. And so use the link in my bio, set up a consult call with me because at the very least, even if joining the next round, isn't the best time or this isn't the right move for you right now. I totally understand. And what I want is for you to just have enough to keep going. So Jenny, thank you so much for joining me today. And I look forward to talking to anyone who would like to have that conversation with me. Awesome. Thank you. Thanks. Bye bye.