Episode 60: Exploring Non-Traditional Relationships with Kimberly Mathis

I’m so grateful for my guest Kimberly Mathis and this week’s fascinating conversation. Kimberly is a queer therapist-turned-general life coach with an ADHD brain who helps people change what feels unchangeable. She teaches her clients how to make their own decisions and navigate difficult relationships - including the one they have with themselves. She works with clients 1:1, loves sharing her work and life with her community on Instagram, and hosts a podcast called, "Decisions Change Everything." Healthy, respectful relationships can come in many forms. Traditional Western society pushes a heteronormative narrative about what makes a “successful” relationship- where longevity is valued more than quality. It IS possible to explore attractions and relationship dynamics in ways that are healthy, respectful, and respect your autonomy and someone else's. Communication is key, along with being vulnerable and tolerating discomfort. Can’t wait for you to listen. 

Find Kimberly here:
https://www.kimberlymathis.com
https://www.instagram.com/thekimberlymathis/
https://www.facebook.com/thekimberlymathis

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Transcript

0:51

You are listening to the ex good girl podcast, episode 60, Kimberly Mathis, you have been on my mind for quite some time. And this podcast episode has been something that I've just loved kind of working on behind the scenes with you. And I'm so glad we get to have this conversation. Yes. I think it'll be an interesting conversation, probably a little unusual. Uh, interesting and unusual. I think that's what people need, right? Tell everyone who you are and what you do. Sure. I am Kimberly Mathis. I am a former licensed marriage and family therapist who transitioned into coaching about three and a half years ago. And I'm a general life coach. I coach mostly women, but also some men on anything and everything. And I like to jokingly say I'm a. Professional mind manager. Um, but I really just help people change things that feel very unchangeable. Uh, that is so good. I think every one of us can identify with something that just feels like, Nope, that's just the way it is, that relationship, that situation, something it's just going to, it's that's the way it is. And that's how it's always going to be. Yeah. It's my favorite thing. Amazing. Well, one of those things that to a lot of people just feels unchangeable. Yeah. Is our idea of relationships and where you and I have been having some, uh, really great discussions is non traditional relationships. And I don't, I'm just admitting up front. I don't know a lot about that. I have worked with some clients in some non traditional relationships, but, uh, haven't really explored that world beyond, you know, kind of helping a few clients. What should someone who is new to non traditional relationships, I've also heard it called relationship anarchy. What are some things that they should know? Oh goodness. Well, I think a really important thing to know is that you're probably going to feel a little bit alone, a little bit like an outsider. And so it's really important to find communities or professionals or other resources that just validate that like you are not the only person in this situation or having these questions or thinking these things because A lot of what we will be discussing and a lot of people end up kind of looking into are things that are outside societal norms, cultural norms, things that might be a little more taboo. And it's hard to kind of find your footing when it's something new and you have this additional layer of like, that's not the way you're supposed to be doing it. Okay, so you're speaking directly to somebody who is maybe curious about this or trying to bring some nontraditional practices into a traditional relationship. They might feel alone. They might feel like I'm doing something I'm not supposed to be doing because of all this programming that we have. Well, let's just name the programming because I feel like that's a really helpful. Place to start. So obviously from a, like a feminist patriarchy lens, which is what I use a lot in coaching. Women are taught that you are supposed to be chosen, right? That you, you kind of pretty yourself up and you make yourself choosable and that your value is in being chosen. It's in having a long term romantic partner. Um, we have a heteronormative. Yes. There's also something called the relationship escalator. Oh, tell me that. What is it? Kinds of heteronormativity. It's basically that there is a prescribed way, like a step up in these different phases of relationships. To make a relationship successful. So if a relationship is valid and it is successful, it has gone up this escalator. So like it's dating, then dating exclusively, then getting engaged, then getting married, then moving in together and sharing all the finances, having children, staying together until you both die. This is basically what it is. Like that is the. If a relationship is a good relationship, right? It will move forward in a sense, move up those different steps. And it's so interesting because at some point I've noticed this. We are no longer concerned with the quality of that relationship. We're just concerned with the longevity of it. And that's what we celebrate. Like I'm celebrating 25 years of marriage this year. And I feel, um, grateful that my husband and I have had kind of twin paths of changing and, and, um, becoming different people together. Um, but it's so interesting. I know people who've been married for 25 years who don't like each other anymore as much. And so, but, but they're being congratulated on. Oh, my gosh, you guys have been together 25 years. That's amazing. And we're much less concerned with. The quality. So is that where some of these non traditional practices kind of come in in a helpful way? Yeah, I think in a way they, the reason they came about is because people are just talking about and naming like very normal human experiences when it comes to having feelings for someone or more than one person having attraction, um, valuing different types of relationships. Like it's just discussing. Very normal experiences that have been kind of for whatever reason, right. Lumped into the, like, this is bad. This is not as healthy. This is not the way it's supposed to go. And yet people are still like experiencing that. And so it gives, I think it just articulates like, yes, this is normal. Yes. Here's what you're feeling. And if you want to navigate this, if you don't just want to shut it all down, like maybe here's some ways to do that that are healthy. And respectful and respect your autonomy and someone else's. Yeah. So I think they've just come out of discussion. It's so interesting. Cause that's also part of the programming. Um, really quickly, I just wanted to give a definition of heteronormative for if that, if that's new to you, it's just, it's just the idea that a heterosexual relationship is what everybody has. It's what is normal is what is it's what is expected. So, but I want to throw out another term. Please. Yeah. Yeah. Impulsive heterosexuality. Tell me what that means. Referred to as comphet. Um, I found this perhaps on a late blooming lesbians, Reddit thread way in the day. And it's a big, huge list of how from the get go, we are kind of programmed to just think of ourselves as being straight. Like when you think about toddlers on the playground, you know, and it's like, Oh, it's her little boyfriend or his little girlfriend, totally on shirts and all of that stuff. It's a very interesting list of things. Oh my gosh. I saw a boy, this was a target yesterday and he was, he was probably two and he was wearing a t shirt that said lady killer. Yes. Yeah. So just, yeah. So, so not only is heterosexuality considered to be what is normal, but you're saying and naming there's a part of it that is compulsive in that that's just what we actually push onto people. This is the way you are supposed to. Yes. Babies and children are straight. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. People. And now. Yeah. And. Yes. So part of the, another part of the programming that I just wanted to name that came up when you were talking about how some of these non traditional practices come into being, we, we are taught that I'm only ever supposed to be attracted to my husband. I'm only ever supposed to think that he is the, you know, the only handsome man walking the planet. And he's only supposed to have those same thoughts about me as well. And We know from just human experience that, that that's not how attraction works. Right. And, and if you have the value or if you have the, the, um, agreed on, you know, Relationship component of we are only going to act on attraction for each other. Then that means you're monogamous, but there are people who either don't have that value or don't think that the practice of only fostering attraction to one person is what is best for them. So tell me. Tell me what kinds and I know you're not going to be able to name like every single iteration of every single non traditional relationship, but give me an idea of like, what is out there that people are trying. Um, so relationship anarchy is considered one, um, one form of a non traditional relationship and it's kind of, uh, bringing anarchist principles. Like we reject all the. Rules into intimate relationships, um, that would be one there's an, and that can include. Relationships in which there are multiple partners and it can be monogamous relationships, although I think that's probably less common for people who, um, kind of ascribe to relationship anarchy. Um, then there's polyamory, which there's all sorts of different variations of polyamory. There's solo polyamory. There's kitchen table, polyamory. There's just regular, I guess, polyamory. Um, there's ethical non monogamy. I think that's probably the most common. I'm sure there's probably some outliers of other things out there, but yeah, that's what I remember. Um, I mean, E and M kind of coming on the scene of my consciousness. Like, I don't know if it was during the pandemics, I just read like article after article because I was just so fascinated by, um, How does someone do this in a way that doesn't? Like totally blow up their life and, and if they want to keep a relationship and yet they are feeling, um, decided, like, how, how would someone know if non traditional relationships were something that they or should explore? What might some signs be in their relationship? Um, I don't know. So I think that some people look at this as like, it's almost like the queer debate about whether you are born this way or whether you are, it's a choice that you make, you know, not settled that yet. No, we certainly have, my God. Yeah, I have a whole podcast episode on this, by the way, is it like a choice? Um, and I do think it's probably both for people who are thinking about or in non-traditional relationships. I think some people are probably. It's a combination of nature and nurture, right? And just to be clear, we're not talking about queer people anymore having both. We're talking about people choosing these non traditional relationships. Yeah. People who are wired in a way, like they have had. Secure attachments. They have not had relationship traumas. You know, they have had a kind of upbringing the way that they think about the world. It's all these factors that make it easier for them to step into something that is outside the norm. I think there are other people who might be interested in it because. Of maybe their current relationship, like maybe they're having difficulties, but they don't want to split up. So they're like, how can we stay together, you know, and both of us get our needs met and both of us be happy. And so they might start learning about these other things. And it might also take them more work to kind of. Move into that and it's probably going to bring up a lot of stuff for them. Like, I think there's people all over the spectrum when it comes to this. I think when you ask, like, what are the signs? I don't know that there have to be signs. I think it's just like, if you want to explore some other options for whatever reason, You have the right to do that. I think that's such a, a freeing take on it. I just remember, so I grew up Mormon and in Mormon land, you don't get a divorce unless something illegal or immoral has happened, like an affair or something. And I remember, um, coming, just coming into coaching, like by listening to Podcast, you know, uh, and one of the, I, we, we were both deeply unhappy at times in our marriage, but felt just kind of stuck in it because it's like, you know, nobody's doing anything illegal or immoral. And those are the only exit ramps out of this. And so, but being given the piece of. Advice. You know what? You can only really choose your marriage if you have the option to not choose it. And going through the exercise of like, do I want to, uh, do I want a divorce? Like what are all the reasons why I might, and what are all the valid reasons? What are all the, you know, valid was just my own definition of valid. But then going through that really as a real actual choice. Was so powerful for me because it actually made me choose to stay married in a way that has worked out Incredibly like and I didn't realize unless You have the choice to not choose it. Is it really a choice? And so even for someone, I would say, who is curious or or seeing some places where non traditional practices might be helpful that just because you're going to research them and learn about them doesn't mean. You're going to take that road. It doesn't mean anything about you. Sometimes it just reaffirms or gives you new insight into choosing a traditional relationship. So that's kind of how it, you know, I, I wasn't necessarily, I wasn't looking into nontraditional practices, but even divorce. Was a very in my mind at that time, a non traditional, you know, way of just, again, being in that programming of like, you just keep going. It doesn't matter how good it is. It just matters how long it is. So, um, how have you ever had people. And in your coaching practice, like explore nontraditional relationships and then have that just reaffirm their commitment to a more traditional looking relationship. Um, I have had some people come to me that were already in, um, like they, they didn't seek me out to help them kind of begin this process. They were already. In some sort of relationship that was non traditional, um, non monogamous and I think, I mean, I'll just be completely honest. I think most of the, when I think back on it, most of the people who were in those relationships, they ended up splitting up from their partners. Yeah. Um, I can't think of any actually off the top of my head that remain together, um, because I will say, I think there's so much pressure to stay married societally that sometimes people agree to relationship agreements, new relationship agreements, such as like ethical non monogamy. They are scared of being on their own. They don't want to get a divorce. Right. And so they'll agree to do some of these other things that maybe they're really not. Yeah. Okay. With or totally want themselves. And it's kind of like a last ditch effort to like to hold on to the person. Yeah. In some kind of new format. Well, where I really thought our discussion could be valuable, um, is in talking about the tools. That somebody would need to start exploring non traditional relationships with the, the, also just the, the eye on the fact that these tools will make any relationship better, whether it's a traditional or non traditional. So if you, if you could have, you know, started with either one of the couples that you're thinking of in the very beginning, what would you have told them about the tools or skills that they would need? I think the very first thing I would want to spend some time on, and it's probably several sessions is getting really clear on their definitions of things and the kind of agreements they want to set up. As they kind of move into, you know, a new structure or new, um, what's the word agreement like agreements is the word that comes to mind, but it's almost like, um, things that they're giving each other permission to do. Yeah. I get to talk about them, how they want to check in with each other, what they tell each other. Yeah. Is that is that kind of what relationship agreement is? That's what I was going to ask you for. Just give me a definition of a relationship agreement. Yeah. A relationship agreement is almost like a contractual, like if we were going to write out a contract of how we both operate in this relationship, what's important, what we have both like we understand. To be a, um, it might be a boundary, a non negotiable, a protocol for doing something. Like we have both said that we understand it and we affirm we each are like choosing agreeing to do it this way. I love that. It's just something we don't ever do. And even in a traditional relationship, like starting out with like, what do you think our roles should be in our relationship? I can, I mean, because of my, you know, religious background, there was a lot of just, Assumptions made about traditional gender roles. And I think if I could have had the chance to sit down and even just talk about them, at least at least it would have given me the opportunity to consider it and either agree on purpose or say, you know what? I don't know that. I want to be always the person who's doing that. So why is it so important to start with definitions? Oh my gosh, because if we just say cheating, right, no cheating, that can mean so many different things to different people can be sex. It can be kissing. It can be flirting with someone. It can be exchanging texts. It could be emotional intimacy. So I think like the first thing you have to do is make sure that you are on the same page. When it comes to like, okay, so no cheating on each other or no lying about blah, blah, blah, or just whatever it may be, you know, or how much time we want to spend together. Like spending, someone could say, we want to spend quality time. Okay. Well, what does that mean to you? What is quality time? Right. Is it being engaged with each other and like taking time away from the house and kids for us, someone else? It could be, you're just sitting beside me and we're not talking while we watch a show on TV. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Examine what all that stuff means. To each person. So good. Good starting place. So good. And so important, even in traditional relationships, like how would we know if we were spending quality time together? Because even like what feels like quality time to me might be different than quality time to you. And so I love to ask that follow up questions. Like how would we know if this was happening? And I think relationship agreements are not one and done, like they are ongoing. It's a conversation that you have over and over again, especially if you're in a relationship with someone for a long time, because those definitions may change for people. Totally. So we have to revisit them. Do you recommend, or would you recommend like a, a revisiting format where like once a month, every six months? Yeah. I would say, you know, when you are maybe doing something totally new, like ethical non monogamy, if that was something you and a partner were going to, you know, explore, then probably want to have those conversations more often than if you are a couple who's been married 25 years, right. And things are. Mostly the same. Your lives are mostly the same. Then you might do it like once a year. You might have a big relationship check in. So is that what you mean? I was just going to say if things are, there's a lot changing. I would probably do it more often initially. So is that what you mean? I've heard you talk about like relationship business meetings. Is that, is that what you mean by that? Well, we think about, we just think about businesses differently than relationships and how important it is to have a business plan and like, know what's going on in your business. For example, like knowing the, all the numbers, the finances and like checking in about your goals and where you are, because we all think businesses should be successful, right? Like it's supporting your life for a lot of people, it's their income. And we don't think about relationships the same way. You know, we get into them and it's like, yes, they're important and they're supporting our life. And we're not having any relationship meetings. It's like we get married and there we are, you know, just expect it to just go. Yes. Yeah. Yep. Or we have arguments. We don't have preemptive discussions, you know, and sit downs and check ins. That's true. And so the, the time when you're discussing. What is happening in the relationship is when something is going wrong. Yes. When, when emotions are high, when you're mad, because, you know, there's been something unsatisfactory that's happening. And so, yeah, there's kind of this expectation, right? That like, if they really love you. Right. It's that whole mind reading thing. Like they should just know they should get it. Right. Or there's an assumption that if cheating means this to me, right. Then it means the same to them. Like the way that we define things and think about things is how our partner do it. And we never question it. For sure. The other thing that I, where I can see this kind of like business structure being really helpful is that as you As you are older and you have multiple relationships, all those relationships have informed what you think a relationship should be like and how it should work. If you divorce, like, I think about my husband and I, you know, we got married, I was 25, he was 26 and We had had previous relationships, but we kind of just created, like, if we're going to use the business metaphor, our own little business together, right? And then we had kids and we just, we were, we were partners in it from the very beginning. But if you, let's just say you divorce. Yeah. It's like, I, it's almost like my, my next relationship with I'm 50, another, you know, person, my age, it's almost more like a merger because he has this. Yeah. Fully formed business background of different relationships and, and I can see it being very similar with, you know, non traditional relationships. You're not like starting from scratch. Yeah. With, with anybody anymore because you've just had so many years of relationship experience. Yeah. I was gonna bring this up. Like it's come, it's popped into my mind several times. There is something called the relationships smorgasbord. It's awful to try to, um, spell, but it is a relationship anarchy. It came out of relationship anarchy, but it's the idea that all these things that we just kind of assume are included in a romantic. Intimate relationship that they're actually more like things on a platter or like a buffet and you don't have to put every single thing on your plate shoes, what you want. And so I think that this is helpful when you're starting to date someone, because it's like, what do I want? If we're going to move forward, if we both want a serious relationship, right, then what do we want that relationship to include? And same thing, like if you get divorced, right? Like you might not need the same things. You might not want the same things on your plate. Totally when you were 25. So it includes things like, um, of course, like sexual intimacy, uh, physical affection finances. Are we sharing our money? Are we combining money? It can include caretaking of children or of pets. Um, it can, uh, include like someone being your life partner, but not necessarily a domestic Partner. That's so interesting. Yeah. All together. Like, do we want to travel? Do we want to share businesses together? Like, do we want to get involved in each other's business? Um, emotional intimacy, just like all the things you're reminding me of an article that I read, and this was several years ago now about women who are in like maybe, uh, late sixties, early seventies, mid seventies, whose first partner dies. They want partnership, but they do not want to get married. They do not want to move in together again. They do not want to clean house, cook, do any kind of caretaking. And so I didn't realize that's like, Relationship anarchy, because what they're essentially saying is while you and I are both healthy, we're going to get together. We're going to maybe have intimacy, be, you know, sexual intimacy, be part of it. Maybe not. Uh, we're going to travel, but I do not clean your house. I do not cook your meals. I do not take any kind of responsibility for your healthcare because for women, that type of free labor, they're just over it. And they're not going to do that for anybody else. Interesting. Yeah. What they want their relationship to include instead of it has to look the way it always has or the way it does for most people. Yeah, yeah, that's so interesting. So if someone can get some good definitions and create a relationship agreement, and then some kind of. Uh, structure for revisiting that relationship agreement and look at it more like, like some of the ways that we tend to look at healthy, successful businesses, what else would they need to kind of look at after that? I mean, I definitely think access to their own individual support, like with a coach or a therapist, it's going to be really helpful because things will come up, things are going to get triggered. And having a place that's not the person you're trying to do it with, having a place to process all of that and clarify for yourself, like what you really want and what matters to you and you know, what is okay and what is not okay, what you want to communicate. It's really, really helpful. What are some of the things that someone could expect to come up like those things you're talking about? For one thing, jealousy is a big one and it's not a matter of not being jealous. Because it's a normal human thing, right? And especially with all of the programming that we have about relationships and what it means if someone is attracted to someone else, right? Then they're not attracted to you or they are attracted more to that person than you. Like so much of it has to do with rejection and it meaning something about our own self worth. It's like just knowing that jealousy is going to come up and it is normal. I think that's important, but it's how you handle the jealousy. I think that matters. Not it being there that it being there is not a problem. So being there should be expected. It's not a sign that something has gone wrong or it's not working or you're not doing it correctly. Yes. Okay. Here's where I see the people pleasing. I mean, coming in is in the skills that are needed to communicate. I'm feeling jealous. I'm feeling left out. I'm feeling like I don't get the same amount of time. Women have so much programming around not being needy, not, um, but waiting to be chosen, but yet not being needy, um, not taking up too much space, not whining, not complaining, you know, really. And then, and then gel that, that jealousy means they're bad or wrong. I think this is so, it's such a nuanced, like complicated discussion. Um, what was coming to my mind as you were talking about that is. Um, I think it's also very easy if you are a people pleaser, especially women, just like, like you were saying with like the, I don't want to be too needy, you know, I don't want to need too much. I don't want to complain too much. Blah, blah, blah. It's really easy to try to talk yourself out of what you are feeling or wanting or needing because you're like, well, I can see the logic in these. Arguments for ethical non monogamy or relationship anarchy or polyamory, whatever it may be. And I know there are people who work past it and move past it and all of that. And it's okay if you don't want to do all that work. It's okay if you're just like. Um, I've tried, I really wish I could get myself there and I cannot, this is not for me. I think that's the scary part because if you have a tendency to people, please, you're probably also not that comfortable being alone and being by yourself or feeling rejected, right? So to say this isn't working for me really puts on the table, the possibility that your partner, whoever you're saying that to is like, well, I'm sorry. I like. You know, maybe we split up, this is what I want and then you have to decide, like maybe I don't want to be in this relationship. It's just very, very scary. Yeah. Here's where I like to remind women in particular, human socialized women, that we often feel like we are kind of stuck in a relationship or held hostage, even when our partner is making choices that we don't want. And just to keep in mind, you always have the ultimate choice of whether or not to stay with me. In, in any relationship that you are in, it might be so painful to find that you and your partner want different things, but you always have that ultimate choice. I imagine that if someone is exploring nontraditional relationships as an attempt to save a marriage or as an attempt to, to keep someone that is going to be, that's going to be tricky because it's not end well. It's, it's not what they really want, right? It's not coming from a place of like, yes, I, I agree to this because I think it would also fit. And I think I can do it and I'm interested in it. It is really just coming from a place of, I'll say yes, I'll give you permission, even though I don't like it. Yes. Because it will make you happy and maybe you'll stay here. Yeah, that is, that is such an important thing. You just said it's, you're choosing it to, to try and please the other person and not because it's what you would choose to, right. And that's where the self, the self abandonment, um, starts happening. And the way I think about it, and I'm interested in your thoughts about this is that through consent means I choose this for myself. Yes, not that I've talked myself into it. And I make the distinction like up here in our brain. We can women, especially human socializes, women can go through all kinds of gymnastics to make something work. You know, let's just go with this example we've been using of like, I'm trying to save this relationship. And so. My partner wants it. It's what will make them happy. I think I can figure it out. Like that is the, the logical brain trying to talk you into it. When, when you dropped into your body, like, how do you, is it, is it springing forth from your own desire? It is. Is it like if there were no partner involved, would you decide on your own? Hey, I think I would like to look at some non traditional relationship practices. And if that's not the truth, I don't think that's real consent. What do you think? No, I completely agree with you. I think the thing I watch for a lot of times with clients, like what they are experiencing in their body is like a big sigh or like they can take a deep breath or their shoulders relax. You know, if thinking about doing something, even if it's something totally new and maybe a little uncomfortable, maybe, you know, you're unsure about it. I still think if you notice a feeling of like, Oh, okay. Like it takes some pressure off, you know, then that's probably a sign that like, you are okay with it. You're saying yes to it because I don't think I was saying this to someone else the other day. I can't remember who it was. I'm saying, I don't think that that feeling and in our bodies of like, I can breathe, I can take a deep breath, right. Is ever a lie. Like our bodies don't fake that. It's so good. You know, we don't fake relief. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It did feel like a lot of anxiety. Right? Like. Yeah. What we fake is accommodation. Yes. Yes. We fake, we fake like, we fake like, uh, agreeing like, no, no, no, no, no, that's fine. Yeah. No, I can totally do that. Yeah. No, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. That, that kind of, it's such a good point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And. When we get to a place of actual relief, you're right, the breath, like a nice deep, like I feel grounded, calm, settled, like, yes, this might be scary. This might be unknown, but I willingly choose it and want to go in that direction. And I feel calm and connected. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Consent is so tricky because when you don't have it. Nothing else works because then let's, let's imagine, you know, there's a woman trying to save a marriage enters into non traditional practices because there is not any consent. She is fighting that the whole time, you know, having to constantly revisit the fact that it was never fully her choice with a hundred percent being on board. And so that just, that makes it rough. It might also be kind of an unspoken contract. In her mind that like, well, if I say yes to this, right, then that means that you're going to show up differently. You'll be better, relationship will improve, like something like that that hasn't really been discussed. Yeah. Kind of like a tip for tat. Yeah. And it can show up. I think a lot, like very often it's passive aggressiveness. Like you said, yes. But you didn't really mean yes, yes, you know, so there's going to be little backhanded comments, you know, things, or almost like looking for things to be mad about track in order to create conflict and say, like, see, this isn't working. Yeah. That's so important. And I think that just speaks to, you know, your point about needing individual support. That's not the person because they're not going to see, right. They're not going to see it the same way. And they're okay. But you said yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. No, you say like one of the things I also want to mention, like we're talking about it from the perspective of someone whose partner has maybe come to them and asked. Um, but it can also be just as difficult for to be the partner who wants to ask, say more about that. Um, well, I just think there is a, I think probably a lot of people, this is why they end up cheating, right? Because they're needing something else. They're not getting something from their partner. There's always so many reasons. Um, but it's so much more scary to go to your partner who you add this like commitment to, right? Whether you're married or not. And say, Hey, I would like to have relationships of some type with other people outside of just me and you, because there's a fear of gosh, judgment, right? Being called selfish and like. You know, who, who even knows what else, um, of hurting the other person of being rejected. Like maybe you don't want to not be with this partner, but if you're going to ask for this, they also have the right to say like, that is not what I want in the least. Yeah. And I don't even want a partner who would ask for that. Yeah. So it's very scary to start that conversation. That's such a good point. And I think it just goes back to being able to tolerate the discomfort of communicating something that you think is going to make someone else upset. And that, that is something we all have in every type of relationship, no matter what it is. Like being able to sit with and listen to and just feel the fear, anxiety, worry, discomfort of saying something you think someone else is going to be mad at or upset at, or it's going to make them sad or going to make them doubt or going to make them judge. I would also just want to remind. People that, if they had a partner who brought this to them, it doesn't necessarily mean that the only option for your partner is that you say yes, right. To whatever request there may be it. I think the first place to go would be like, let's look at why the request is there in the first place. Like, and that's going to be uncomfortable, but there's some really important discussions to be had there about like, what this person feels like is missing more of maybe like what they haven't even communicated to you about what they want from you. Right. And it gives you an opportunity to say like, well, is there a way for me to meet those Like, are there, is there a way for us to do things differently that would tend to some of those instead of jumping straight to, like, maybe we need to open our relationship? Yeah, that's so good. Um, the communication, the, the level of honesty and ability to sit with discomfort is one of those tools that will benefit any relationship. Yeah. And. It's essential if you are exploring some of these non traditional. Have a healthy non traditional relationship structure. If you cannot communicate openly and be honest and vulnerable and be willing to hear uncomfortable things. And like, choose how you respond to that versus just getting triggered and reacting. Yeah. It's just not going to work. Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned that someone who has a high degree of security in relationships will have possibly an easier time of this. Does that mean that People who have more avoidant or anxious attachment styles in some of their relationships, it's harder for them. Um, I actually think this is just my personal opinion, personal thought that if someone is avoidant, they're not necessarily doing that well, but it will be easier for them to kind of. Almost look like they're forming attachments with lots of other people, but it's really like the more attachments I have, the easier it is. So good. Yeah. A little bit further away from me. Um, so yeah, then, then they just don't have to be intimate or vulnerable with anybody because there's just so many of them. Okay. And it's, and it could be even more protective. Yes. Yep. Okay. Such a good point. I definitely think like someone with anxious attachment, this is probably not the kind of relationship structure that's a real good fit for you because, um, because if you already skew towards anxiety about your partner being distant from you or leaving or having feelings for someone else, right. Or abandoning you in some way, there's so many more opportunities for that to get triggered and come up. Okay. Yeah. There are like other partners outside of you involved. Yeah. Just really hard. It's a lot to manage. Do you think that someone with an anxious attachment style can heal that and come to a place of more security where they are able to have some of these non traditional practices? Yeah, I think that they can, I don't know that I would say it's ever healed. I think if you have an anxious attachment style, it's kind of like the way that your brain is wired. And even if it's not as much of a problem for you anymore, it doesn't mean that it's not going to get triggered sometimes. So you may be able to change how you respond to it, but it's not that you've like eliminated it happening ever again. That's a good point. Yeah. That's a good point. I do think you can learn tools and skills. But you're also kind of choosing to put yourself in situations where you may have to use those a whole lot more often. You know, you may have to come to those tools a lot more frequently than if you were in another relationship. Yeah, that, that makes a lot of sense as we kind of wrap up here. What, what have we not talked about that you really wanted to make sure you say, or is there anything else that. Um, I think one of the things I think about a lot comes from relationship anarchy. And I think initially, like if someone were to Google relationship anarchy, they're initially going to see it come up with a lot of talk about polyamory and non monogamy. And that can scare some people off. But. I love the relationship anarchy principles as a whole, just because they offer so much autonomy and so much choice and deliberateness, um, into our relationships. And that can totally be if a relationship is monogamous as well. Like it doesn't say that everyone has to be non monogamous, but one of the things that they talk about is the lack of a hierarchy in relationships. And I think we see this a lot. Like you can probably either you yourself have experienced or people, you know, have experienced feeling like they've almost lost a really close friend when that friend gets married. Yeah. They've been friends for like 10, 15 years now, because of the way that we do things in society right now, the partner that they've married becomes like the go to like that is their person. And so the other relationship kind of. It gets put on the back burner. It kind of like gets demoted in a way. And so relationship anarchy just suggests that like, we don't have to have a hierarchy. Like nothing has to change. You can actually go to your best friend for advice and for talking about like major decisions and things like that, rather than having to be the person that you're married to. And you go back to that idea of the relationships mortgage board. It's like, you get to choose what relationships. involve, which relationships involve different things. I really love that. I really love that. And I'm so glad you said that because I think some of the, again, we're back to just this, you know, programming of like, you're going to marry this person and they're going to complete you. They're going to be the person who knows you. And I was so disappointed in my husband's ability to like, be my person. He just did not do a good job with that because he was being his own person. Right. Thank you. And it was a source of a lot of conflict of like, how come you just don't love me that way? I want to be loved and you just don't know me the way I want to be known and relying on my platonic relationships and having like scheduled time. I think you make a fantastic point because in our programming, like romantic relationships are the pinnacle of what is valued. Yeah. Oh, don't even get me started on the whole, like all the things, every single need that you could have. Yeah. The reason we talk about them now is like this one person is going to fulfill all of it. Yeah. That's the way marriage used to be at all. No. No. It was like, you get like your basic needs met, right? You have a roof over your head. You have someone to have children with and share the labor. And like, we all stay alive and maybe you, maybe you married that person cause you kind of liked them. Maybe you didn't. It was just for purely economic or social reasons. Right? Yeah. You thought they were a nice person. You weren't in love with them. Yeah. Yeah. That's such a great point. All of that. Yeah. Plus, we also want the like chemical, like, you know, biological, we want to be attracted to you and turned on and have the chemistry and feel the love and all the things. Plus, make sure you like the same things as me. We want the same kind of house and lifestyle. We have the same ideas about domestic labor and gender roles and all the things. Yeah, it's so one of the best things we ever did in my relationship was, was, um, just really give each other a lot of permission to value lots of time with friends. My husband loves to have deep conversations about the time space continuum and, uh, black holes. And I, I just, I love him so much and I would be fine to never talk about that. So when his friends come over and they're going to go upstairs and. Play pool and talk about, uh, I can't even think of anyway. Yes. I'm like, yes, yes. And I'm so happy that he gets to have that experience with people who love that just as much as he does. And it doesn't mean anything about me, except that I now get to go, you know, have some time on my own. So I love that you brought up that lack of hierarchy because we do have to just constantly question. Um, is what I am doing for myself. What I want. Yeah. Was this my choice? Is this my choice? It's just what I thought I was supposed to do or saw everyone else doing. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm going to introduce like gender role anarchy. Maybe that terms already out there, but that was really helpful for me. And I just want to name that as well as like, just because we grew up this way with expectations of me as a human socialized as a woman. And you as a human socialized as a man, is that what we continue to choose? And sometimes we still do. I'm a way better cook than my husband. And that means, you know, that we choose that I do that, but he has taken on some roles that used to be documentary, a fair play. Ooh, so good would be a great resource for people. Yes, yes. Yeah. I love that you said that. Again, this is like coming back to that whole idea of relationship agreements. Yeah. That, that book, and there's now a documentary where they kind of talk about the same thing. Um, it is a great conversation starter for agreeing on some of those things involving domestic and emotional labor within the house. Yeah. That often we just kind of fall into. Yeah. Totally. It's like, wait, you're always doing the dishes and you're always like doing the yard work and, but do you actually, like, are you okay with that? Do you like doing that stuff? You know, if you got to just like start over and pick from scratch what you wanted to do around the house. Yeah. And that's the thing that we just never are told. We can start over and pick from scratch, start over from scratch and choose whenever we want, whenever we want. I also just want to give a shout out to the book platonic. Um, it's really opened my eyes. To the importance this relationship hierarchy agreement that, you know, you and I have been talking about and how friendship is such a often much more enduring. Yes. I've been married, you know, to my husband for 25 years. This year, but I have friendships that have been going like 30 years or 35 years. And so, yeah, they, yeah, they are in some really significant ways. Yeah. So Kimberly, thank you so much for this conversation. I feel like there's going to be a lot of great discussions that come out of this. If people want to find you, follow you, learn more about you and your coaching for, um, you know, non traditional relationship help or otherwise, where should they find you? Um, so Instagram is my favorite place to be on social media right now. They can find me there at the Kimberly Mathis and my website is Kimberly Mathis. com. And I also have a podcast called decisions change everything that is on Spotify and Apple. Okay. Go find her there. She's amazing. Kimberly. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you. Such an interesting discussion.