Episode 14: Mother-Daughter Relationships with Karen C.L. Anderson

In this week's episode, Sara interviews Karen C.L. Anderson, a Master certified life coach and author who specializes in coaching about the mother/adult daughter relationship. They discuss the challenges that often arise in this particular relationship, exploring the generational aspects and the societal shift towards acknowledging trauma and the importance of emotional expression. Karen shares insights from her own journey of estrangement from her mother and the subsequent healing process, emphasizing the need to separate one's identity from the expectations imposed by the mother-daughter dynamic. They delve into topics such as people-pleasing, guilt, regret, and the significance of setting boundaries in a relationship. Karen's approach highlights the importance of self-love and acceptance, challenging the belief that unconditional love is contingent on meeting certain conditions. Sara and Karen conclude by discussing the power of questioning and redefining the roles and stories that have been passed down through generations, offering a fresh perspective on nurturing healthier mother-daughter connections.

You can find Karen on IG @kclanderson

Find Sara here:
https://sarafisk.coach
https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/
https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/
https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333
https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach
What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

Transcript

0:51

You are listening to the Ex Good Girl Podcast, episode 14. Okay, Karen. When I saw who and what you coach about, I was like, okay, yes. Get her on, let's get her on this podcast because, um, it's so important. I'm gonna let you talk a little bit more about that. But I, our guest today is Karen c l Anderson, and she coaches about, we're relationships with moms. So, Karen, introduce yourself and tell us how, I would love to know, how did you arrive at coaching about mom relationships? Well, I kind of have a standard because I get asked that question a lot and the answer is, well, I have a mother, uh, um, and things have not always gone very well. Um, but yeah, so I, um, I am a master certified life coach and a writer and author, and I, uh, It's like weird. It's like I kind of stumbled into this mother daughter, you know, mother adult daughter relationship coaching and as my interest as I said, because it was my story. Um, and what's interesting is that I've been a writer for a really long time and I started blogging in 2009 and at that time it's not that my mom and I got along great, but that seems to be a turning point. I don't know if it was the blog specifically or the fact that I was gonna publish a book based on the blog like a couple years later. Um, but things really kind of, can I swear on this podcast? Absolutely went to hell and, um, And then I got into coaching and in 2014 when I was doing my master coach certification, it, it was during that time I was estranged from a mother at that time. And I had been for several years and all of my mother's stuff was coming up because I was my grandmother's legal guardian at the time. My mom's mom. Oh yeah. She had named me, um, as her person for a variety of reasons, and I was legally required to be in contact with my mom and her siblings, my aunt, my uncle at the time. So even though I was estranged from my mom, like. I would have to send like emails once a month or whatever if they had questions. It was like my job legally to, you know, respond to that. And I will never forget, as I said, being in master coach training. And my mother had sent me an email and I was like, like volcano of anger erupting about what she said in this email. And I brought it to like the master coach class, whatever day. I don't even remember like what it was we were doing specifically. And the coaching that I received then. And over the course of, you know, however many weeks or months it was specifically around, this was just really like wow. And in order to pass the Master Coach training, I had to have a project. So I decided to. Create a, I think it was like a six week program. I don't even remember what I called it. Um, but then that became the basis for a book that I published in 2015, which was called The Peaceful Daughter's Guide to Separating from a Difficult Mother. And then started coaching and then rewrote and revised that book. Expanded it cuz I was learning so much. And that became, um, difficult Mothers Adult Daughters, A Guide for Separation, liberation and Inspiration, which came out in 2018. So it's just been rolling along since then. What is it about this particular relationship that has so many of us tied in knots? Well, I think, to be honest, I think, I think it is a generational thing for sure. I mean, I mean obviously with every generation there's stuff that happens, but I suspect, so I'm 60, my mom's 82. Um, so I'm technically a boomer. Um, she's like the silent generation, right? And I know that a lot of boomers who have kids, right? And I don't have kids, but um, right there seem, it seems to be sort of boomer silent generation. And then you have Gen X and millennials and Gen Z coming along. And it's not that I've done. Like formal research or anything, but just based on, you know, what I see out there, what I hear, the people I meet, it's, that's where the sort of, the break seems to be happening. Mm-hmm. And I think part of it has to do with the internet. Part of it has to do with all the stuff that we're kind of just talking about right now, like our awareness around trauma and around people pleasing and like all these things that I don't think anybody really understood the way we understand it now and. For those of us who decide, who like see it and, and, and feel the impact of the stuff that happened when we were children. Um, and again, not necessarily the like horrific abuse or anything like that, although that can be part of it for sure. Um, but those generations, and maybe even some Gen Xers too, but they were sort of like, well, that's just the way it is and you suck it up and you keep going and you know, don't talk about your feelings and none of that matters and whatever. Versus what we're learning now, which is actually all of that stuff is really, really important. And um, but then when it comes to moms and daughters in particular, um, I mean, you could say this about sons too, but. You know, um, like she, she g brought us into the world, right? And that is, there's a connection there. And are, are you a mom? Yes, I have five children. Oh, okay. Wow. All right. So, right. I don't have any, so actually you might actually be able to speak to that better than I can from like, what is it? You know, you know, I, I mean, we feel it as like the tether to our, like that that umbilical cord, I think is a, it is a, um, it's a physical representation of what becomes like a metaphor, right? Mm-hmm. That, that we are tied to our mothers in their womb. Like literally we depend on them for. Everything that we get utero and then we're born there is like the physical separation, but that umbilical cord just seems to be like a metaphor for the way that we are tethered. Mm-hmm. To our moms. I mean, as babies we physically depend on them and they are different levels of, um, you know, conscious to our needs. And some of them respond to every need. Some of them don't. There's that whole spectrum. And I, I mean, I feel that, I feel that tether, you know, to my own mother. And I think my children feel it to me. And there's just something so primal about that original relationship. The body from which you come. Yeah. Body on which you depend Yes. You know, to be taken care of and. Man, it is just so many of my clients, um, and myself included, we, we have to work through what that tethering means. Right. And I mean, specifically for the daughter, right? She's looking at her mom as the model. Right? Right. So, yeah. Yeah. So when you're looking at like the, the primacy of that relationship, I, I love a lot of your posts because like, for example, I'm just gonna read one back to you and, and, and I, and I just, I want you to comment on, on just whatever you think stands out in, in terms of this like tethering, um, you said the thought quote, she did the best she could. Can be both helpful and annoying. Right? Because a lot of times in our, in our attempts to understand our mothers, we say, you know, she did the best she could. Like she was someone's daughter. Mm-hmm. She had that same, she had to work out that same experience with her own mother, and so she did the best she could. Knowing you can't change her, can be both helpful and frustrating, but this is the sentence, knowing that you can change what you have made, having her as your mother mean about you is everything. Hmm. So tell me a, or speak to me a little bit about, if you would, that process of like, how do we sort out what we made it mean that she was our mom. So my experience is that. And let me just say that the word separation in the titles of my books isn't about never seeing or speaking to each other again. Although for some people that is the right choice. But for me personally and for a lot of the people that I coach, it took a long time for us to know that we actually were a separate person. Yes. And I sometimes I wonder about that, like how common is it to feel the way that I felt and for I'm saying well into my forties. Yeah. I mean, it's not that I didn't know I was a separate person, right. But like logically I knew, obviously. Um, but on that more primal level, I didn't. And, you know, you speaking to, uh, to people pleasing, um, right. We're born learning how to people please on some level, right? We're like scanning the environment, especially our mothers is, you know, even if she meet, doesn't mean to right? Like, just turning away at a crucial moment, right. Can set something up. And again, it doesn't, that doesn't mean like she's a terrible mom. It just means that the baby's like learning. Uh, like not consciously, right? Just learning what's okay, what's not okay. Um, and speaking for myself only, and you know, obviously some, some women that I know, um, that separation didn't happen in a healthy way. And you, you know, I don't wanna go get into like, blame here, um, or fault. It's just sometimes that's just how it happens. And, um, so getting back to like what we make it mean about us, um, I, I think, you know, I'm, I'm, this is my story. My, you know, the way I speak to it, I think my mom has a story about who she thinks I am. Mm-hmm. And that I bought that like fully without knowing it and took it on and didn't realize that I could have my own story about who I am. And so, you know, the, there's the things that happened, the things she says, the things she doesn't say, right? Like all those things. And I know that I had this big, long list of thoughts about myself that I had never questioned, I didn't even think of as thoughts. I thought it was just the way it is and learn. And it was funny, it was like when I said in, in, earlier, during that master coach training, that's when all this started for me. When I was started to like, oh, like here's all the things that I've made having this mother mean about me. And it, I don't have to make it mean those things. What you say I think is so fascinating because, I mean, a, I actually teach that people pleasing isn't optional. It's the way we get our Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree with you on that a hundred percent. There's no, there's no choice. We are all, we all people, please and we get. Basic needs, food, sheltered, you know, love, love and connection. That's not optional either. Um, but also what comes with that is this, it seems to be this like, um, tacit, like nobody questions it, idea that my mother is the authority on, she decides who I am. Yeah. What she tells me about myself, what she, um, passes to me maybe not through words about myself, like she is the authority. And I love that you said that at a certain point we have to question Yeah, go ahead. Especially if the, if we're not happy right. To put it in a very simple, simple way. Right. Like, especially if we're like kind of not doing what we, you know, right. There's a, there's a quote, I don't know if it's a quote or a concept, um, that I love about what our basic needs are, and I think it's Dr. Goor mate who says that we equally need to belong and we equally need to be authentic. Yeah. And so then the, the, the, um, the tension between people pleasing and being myself, right. Like, you know, in a quote unquote healthy family or whatever. Right. We, there would be a nice balance. Right. We wouldn't have to. Yeah. And it's, I, I love that quote, and also like, I want this podcast to be both for people who are mothers now, right? Mm-hmm. To see how to, like, as a mom, I would be asking myself, how can I honor. You know, authenticity and belonging in my child, how can I, you know, create space for both of that? And it's just so interesting that the first thing that came up for me is it's hard as a mom, like I have five kids. How do I make space for all of them to be authentic when some of that is messy? It doesn't follow, like what I am trying to do, which most of the time is like, reduce chaos and make things, make things easier. And gosh, that's just, that's some tension there for both, for both the mom and the kid. Yeah. Yeah. So how do we make, how do we make that tension easier? I think, and this is, um, trauma language, but I think. It is in the repair. Mm-hmm. Right. It's, you're not gonna do it perfectly. People are gonna get mad, people are gonna cry. People are gonna like, have hurt feelings, like all of that. Right. And I don't, you know, I, even though I do what I do, and when I talk about it like, this isn't like a, a like, you're a bad mom or, you know, mothers should be perfect. Mothers should, you know. No, that's not it at all. I think what maybe prior generations didn't know, and again, sweeping, sweeping generalization I know, um, is how do we repair disconnection when it happens with our kid because it is going to happen. And, you know, I mean, Losing your patience, you know, all of that kind of stuff is gonna happen. And you go to your kid, everyone settled down and be, you know what, like, I'm not proud of the way I handled that, or Hey, you know, I'm sorry. And I don't know if mothers did that in the olden days. I mean, maybe some of them did. Maybe, maybe. I think as a mom you are under the burden of the care, like just the physical. If, if we're talking like mostly traditional gender roles, which that's how I grew up. Um, my mom was under the burden of the majority of our, like, physical care and the shame of getting it wrong or having something go wrong, the frustration, the the not knowing what to do. Um, yeah, I can see you end up being tough. Yeah. And I, I came across something years ago, or maybe it was on some blog somewhere, and it was this, it said mothers or women were never meant to be mothering in isolation and the isolation that we currently do. Yeah. Right. So like, it's just, there's some messed up parts that are like systemic more than like, you're, you know, it's your fault or your, you know. Yeah. And we don't, as, as women, as people who are socialized as women, we don't, we are socialized to look at ourselves as the problem. What did you do wrong? Mm-hmm. Yes. What do you need? And not question, first of all, the system, like, is this how we are meant to be raising children? And also there. I think we're coming out of it, but, but I felt also this almost taboo to talk with my children about like, Hey, I don't know what I'm doing here. I am doing the very best I can and I'm a little older than you. But that doesn't seem to be cutting it in all of the situations that come up. And one of the most brilliant kind of inadvertent things that I said came out when I was talking with my own daughter and I just said, listen, I'm getting 10 things right and 10 things wrong all at the same time. Some of the things that I'm getting right, I'm getting right on purpose cuz I'm trying, some of the things I'm getting right are just luck and some of the things I'm getting wrong. I'm getting wrong cuz I'm trying to be better and I'm just not better yet. And some of the things I just don't even know. Yeah. And I'm not gonna know for a while and. What I loved about saying that to her is it kind of became this thing between all of my kids of like, listen, 10 things right, 10 things wrong. Some of'em that I know, some of'em I don't know. And I feel like that was the best way of like talking about it, verbalizing the fact that although I am 35, I've never done this mothering thing before and I, I'm working with the programming that I got Yes. As a child, not just at home too, because we also get programming about how children should act schools mm-hmm. And in perhaps religious congregation and cultural groups and, and so I think just naming it and saying, I mean, I love that quote. There is this tension between. Belonging and being authentic. And when we want to belong, that's when our people pleasing. Mm-hmm. Like that's when we really tur lean into people pleasing, because it's what gets us belonging. And often the authenticity is punished. Yeah, yeah. Right. Yes, it was. Yeah. Being, especially if being authentic means disobeying the rules of those groups, your family, your religious culture, your, your school group. Right. And so, um, it, it just seems to be inevitable that we're gonna get things wrong, things are not gonna go well. And I wanted to read something else that you posted because it just seemed, it was so meaningful to me and it seems relevant now. And this is what you wrote, you said, as far as I know, there's no way to live a guilt and regret free life. I don't care what the no regrets means me. Okay, but here's, this is the brilliant part, but there is a way to stop fearing guilt and regret and it, it actually makes me emotional because I think a lot of mothering today is so high pressure because of this fear, like the inevitability of guilt and regret and fear, like tho the tension between those two things and that you say it this way, there is a way to stop fearing guilt and regret. That's, and that's to be kind to yourself when you notice yourself feeling guilt and regret to take yourself onto your own lap and to love yourself because you feel guilt and regret. Yeah. Tell me a little bit more about that. Well, the whole love yourself because thing, um, I actually write about it. I have a book coming out in June. I, I hope June. Um, I know, I, I, I just voted on the book cover, so, um, yeah. And, and that book is about, it's mostly about shame, even though it also says inter, you know, generational trauma and shame. Anyway, um, there's a story I share in the book and I'll share it with you, and it actually comes from, um, Glennon Doyle's book. Untamed, is it Untamed? Yeah. That's what it's called. Yeah. And in the book she's talking about watching a TV show and she's like, whether kids and her wife, and they're sitting there watching this show, and they know that the girl is about to come out to her parents to say that she is gay and. Glennon is writing in the book, in her book, and she's saying, we're watching this and we're just waiting. Like, how is this gonna go down? Right? And so the girl tells her parents and her mother says, we love you no matter what. And Glennon says, no matter what is what we say to people when they've disappointed us, it sounds great, right? But like if she had said, guess what, I love a boy there, there would've been no matter, no, no matter what there. And I started to think about that idea, especially as it concerns myself and how. It's like I am only Okay. Under certain circumstances. Yes. Right. Like when I'm pleasing and performing right, and pleasant and perfect and all those things. And I, so like there's the, the phrase, no matter what, in spite of, despite right. These little qualifiers that we put. And so I clicked in my head like, what if I loved myself because of the worst thing? Hmm. Because I was petty and mean. Right? What if I loved myself because I ate a whole bag of potato chips, right? What if I loved myself because I felt regret. Right? What if I loved myself? Because, and you and I, I think we probably speak about feelings the same way. But when I, you know, that's, that's al well, and good to say I love myself because Right. But when I, when I landed on this, it like made me cry because it was, I was actually feeling literally the sensations of like, that tenderness and compassion and love for myself. And it was like so beautiful to finally be like, oh, like this is what unconditional love feels like. Do I have it all the time? No. Like, no I don't. But um, like it is an option. It's, it's like, and to just, that's like taking yourself onto your own lap, right? Yes. It's like, it's okay. I love you because you're whatever. Not, not just the good things, right? Yeah. The bad things too. The quote unquote bad things. Yeah. I love all of you. I love the part of you that eats the bag of chips. I love the part of you that, and it's so interesting cuz I can almost hear. Women saying, but if I love myself for eating the bag of chips or for having regret and guilt, then I'm just gonna let myself do it all the time. Yeah. I have to like maintain this, um, this dissatisfaction with that part of me so that I stopped doing it. Has that worked so far? Yeah. Such a great question. So, I mean, we do it to ourselves when we're trying to lose weight, when we're trying to reach goals. It's like there seems to be this part of us that is programmed that we have to be negative and beat ourselves up to accomplish a goal. But that's the most brilliant question is how's that working? Has it worked for me? It hasn't. And I'll be honest, I've, you know, have this little love yourself because practice and I'm still not perfect. Yeah. It seems to just not work that way, but it, what it allows us to do is love ourselves as the juice or the fuel Yes. Or for making changes instead of using self desperation. Inspiration. Yeah. Yeah. And I have found that it goes better, that I can use my love for myself to shape my behavior in ways that make me happy. Mm-hmm. And I don't have to use, you know, guilt and shame. And so that's, that's, that's such an interesting, because I think a lot of, a lot of that we learn from our mothers. Like, how do I treat myself when I am not being who I wanna be? Yes. And how do, how did your mother right, you, the general, you listening? Yeah. How did your mother treat you when you weren't doing what she wanted you to do or, you know? So we learn obviously from the way our mothers treat, the way our mothers treat themselves, but then also how they treat us and how they treat others and all those things. Right. It's so interesting. I feel like when I think back, either consciously or unconsciously, um, the, the punishment of choice was separation. Yes. Go to your room or your room. Right? Or you are not allowed to participate with the rest of us in this thing, whether it's a meal or whether it's time. But even, you know, children being separated, they have to, can't play at recess. They have to sit in the corner while everybody else, and. How, like what are your thoughts about Oh my goodness. Um, again, you know, I'm not a huge expert on trauma and all of that, but, um, you know, the variety of sources will say things like, at the essence of trauma is separation from self and Right. Separation from others. Right. There's shame, right? You have, you, you, and like, it's getting back to what I said before about mom's learning to repair with their child, right? Like, is there gonna be a moment where you just like flip out and are like, get outta my face Right. Or whatever, and the kid goes slinking off. And then it's like, now how quickly can I make that repair? Yeah. Um, it's funny, there's a, a term, and I, the, I don't, I didn't, I've never read his book, but there's a, an author named Geren, I think he was named Geren Kaufman or something like that, and he's, he talks about it being the interpersonal bridge and, and like crossing the interpersonal bridge, right. Bridging that, making the separation, you know, making the connection after separation. Yeah. And if that doesn't happen quick, I don't, again, I don't know what the timeframe is. I don't know like what the perfect thing is. Right. But like, it has to happen. And if it doesn't, if the child is left too long or too long alone with painful emotions that they don't know how to be with, right. I mean, that just, yeah. That compound and that I think is such an interesting to, to, to have been punished with separation. Then separation feels, Like I deserve this. And then it becomes this thing that you're trying to repair of like, how can I, how can I get back into connection? Yeah. And when so much of this people pleasing comes up, how do I reconnect with this person who I have this primal tie to? And that's when a lot of the pleasing, pretending performing, yeah. Comes back up again because that's how we reconnect. You know, another thing, and again, this is, you know, obviously not across the whole world, but something that I find really interesting is that women mothers who were brought up, like say starting in like the 1920s through like the 1950s, a lot of the parenting books and advice was influenced, believe it or not, by Nazis. Uh, that doesn't seem like a very good idea. I know. Tell me more. Um, yeah, it was, it was, you know, it was all about creating perfect children and, you know, training them. And you, you know, infants, you put them on a schedule, your schedule, it doesn't matter if they're hungry, they're gonna go lie down at this time. Like, don't kiss them, don't cuddle them, don't make it. Hmm. That, that'll make them soft. That'll make this, yes, exactly. It was, but it's like antithetical to what we know now, to raising a healthy child, emotionally healthy child. Yeah. That is so interesting. It's clicking with a lot of the ideas that I have seen of like children or like these lumps of clay to be molded. Molded and, and to be, you know, created. And that the highest. Like the most desirable qualities in a child are like compliance, obedience, um, keeping the rules. Yes. That is, that's really fascinating. It is really fascinating. And you know, like as I have gotten older and I, you know, you hear about things happening in the world, you know, bad things happening in the world, right? And we're like, what's wrong with these people? Um, and I think, you know, it's kind of like what we were just talking about, the loving yourself because like, oh, I have, I can't do that because I won't improve. But like we've sh we see that, you know, obedient rule following, uh, you know, putting aside all yourself completely. That doesn't work. Right. It doesn't create, like, I, I, I think there's this idea that humans like can't be left to their own devices. It's like, or else we'd all be like, wild and crazy or something and, and we wouldn't have, you know, and over the years I've, I've thought about, you know, like addiction and like all these things and like, what, why do you know, why does that happen? And you know, the old sort of thought was, you know, they can't control themselves. You know, they're weak, they're whatever. And it's like, I don't think people want to be jerks. I don't think people want to, you know, like in innately I think we are good. If that makes sense. Yes. Yeah. And I think innately we want connection. We want. To feel love for and from an acceptance from and with the people that we are connected to, like our mothers. Yeah. And you know, I mean a lot of the research too is now showing that things like addiction and all that comes from that disconnection, right? It comes from not being connected to self and to others. Yeah. Yeah. So, and I mean, it's, I hate, as I said, I don't like to talk in sweeping generalizations, but yeah, that, that seems to be, that seems to be something really important to keep in mind. I work with a lot of people who feel and, and have over the years, a lot of people who feel a lot of guilt about specifically their relationship with their, their mother or their family in general. We have these ideas that kind of permeate our society about family, what family is, what family should do, the kind of relationship we should have, and what are some of the problems that you see created when we have the belief. But she's family. I should have a good, loving, healthy connection to my family, but she's my mom. I'm sure you hear that a lot. I do. Um, and you know, I I, my mom is still alive and, you know, we don't have a Hallmark relationship. Um, I th you know, I think. Again, like we fear regret, we fear that guilt, right? So it's like we will do anything to avoid it. And I like to ask the question, you know, are you like not setting a boundary or, or you're forcing yourself to go see your mother when you actually, you don't really want to, um, or you're, you're not having the boundary that you wanna have because she's your mother and you are, do, you're not having that boundary because you're afraid of feeling guilty. And so then you go ahead and you override all your own needs and wants and desires. And then how do you feel? And usually frustrated, annoyed, resentment, right? Like if, you know, if this is something that's chronically happening, that's what, that's what happens. And so I ask them, and I saw this in myself as well, do I want to bring annoyance and resentment into the relationship? Like if the choice is between guilt and resentment, right? Like I think I'm doing the right thing by pleasing my mom, right? And then I feel resentful and, and so that's the energy, that's the fuel that is driving the relationship at that point is my resentment or the person's resentment. And so it's not, you're not doing it because you love her. You're doing it cuz you're afraid of feeling guilty. So then you feel resentment. There's no love at all in there, right? Such a great point. I, um, and it just reminds me that I teach that it's, it's uncomfortable to people. Please. It's also uncomfortable to not people. Yeah. Yeah. And so on the one hand it's like, ugh, you've gotta go visit my mom. And there's the resentment. When on the other hand, the guilt of not visiting her sometimes is the emotion that is actually moving you in the direction of not pleasing her, not doing what she wants you to do, just cuz she wants you to do it. And yet we have a lot, this, this guilt resistance that we have oftentimes feel, uh, stops us from taking the action that we want that would benefit us because we're afraid of feeling guilty. Yeah. You know, and, and it took me years to figure out right, how I wanna be in my relationship with my mom. Yeah. And I'm still figuring that out. And I will continue to figure it out. And sometimes, and, and I, you know, I think this is a really healthy way of looking at it, is sometimes I might decide to override my desire because I'm afraid of feeling guilty. But at least I'm honest with myself about it. It's like, I'm clear, you know what, I'm gonna go do this thing. I don't really want to, but I'm going to, and I'm not going to then tell myself, oh, I feel, you know, she forced me. Or, you know, just be, be honest about it. And then, then that gets rid of the resentment, hopefully. One of my favorite things that you talk about is that estrangement, which we often think of as like failure. Right. I failed at this relationship and now we're estranged. Is it estrangement? Is is bad, but is it? I don't think so. I mean, again, like from a coaching perspective, I, when I think about when I estranged myself from my mom, it was at the end of 2010 and I didn't know anything about coaching at the time, and it was very much a, you know, fuck you kind of thing. Um, I was also incredibly hurt. I mean, it was just, it was, I, I, I like, it was just beyond for me at that, in that moment. And, um, but what I, what I learned about myself, and I don't think I set out to learn it when I estranged myself. Like I didn't know the path that I was actually on, but it was only because I took the time. To learn about myself and to, you know, coaching therapy, like how whatever way it is you go about it, right? It's like I then was able to come back into the relationship with a different perspective and a different, like, okay, now I know who I am apart from her. I know what I value. I know what's important to me and can we come back together that way? And the answer for a while was yes. And then she was sort of like, ah, you make me uncomfortable. I don't like you. You know, I don't, it's cuz I wasn't dancing the same dance with her. Yes. Yeah. You know? Yeah. But we have, like, we have wor you know, we've stumbled along and there, you know, there's something funny I actually realized about a year ago that. Part of the reason that I reestablished contact with my mom when I did was to please Brooke Castillo for those being Karen. Karen and I, uh, have had a mentor in the past named Brooke Castillo. She is the founder of the Life Coach School where I'm assuming you were sort of Yes, yes. And she, yeah. That's funny. She had tell, say, tell it. So I, I said, I said, you know, part of the reason I reestablished contact with my mom when I did was to please Brooke Castillo to like, you know, to, to, because she was saying, what, what, what was Brooke saying at the time? I don't remember exactly, but I, I, you know, I think it was sort of like, if you manage your mind well enough, right? You should be able to just, you know, like, you don't, don't hate your mother, don't, you know, blah, blah, blah. And what I didn't know at the time, then I didn't know anything about. My nervous system, I didn't know anything about the trauma that I had experienced and that still lived within me. Yeah. And so I would just then blame myself. There's something wrong with me. I'm a pathetic loser because I can't, you know, like seeing my mom is like created such a, such a strong bodily response in me. So, you know, I, I don't regret it, but I'll be honest, there are times when I'm like, yeah, if I never see my mom again, that's fine. It's so interesting because it is simply not true that just we can think our way through anything. Right? And so that, that whatever behaviors defined, that primal relationship with our mothers, no matter how we think about it, if the nervous system is not able to. Be calm, to be grounded and to choose to not please. Yes. Then we're gonna fall right back into whatever behaviors that we had to do to get connection in the first place. And I mean, I, I have to laugh just because I think so many times we do things because it's like, this is the right thing, this is the thing that I should be doing. But when it feels bad, when it doesn't serve us, when it is, um, it is pinging that nervous system in a way that we don't seem to understand. I, I, I wanna read something else that you wrote that, that I just love because here's, here's what I would like everyone listening to understand. Karen wrote, you don't have to huff and puff about her behavior to decide that it's just not something you want to be around. It is a. We are so used to as women, people socialize as women, we have to justify Yes. Explain. We have to have really good reasons why we are choosing and especially if there's an authority saying you should have a great relationship with your mother. It's like we have to come up with all these reasons to, to really justify what we are doing. And I think what you're getting at here is something that I teach as well. And that it is this just because you want it is enough. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Just because you want it or don't want it, you don't have to explain it or justify it. And for so many people, they just don't want a close, like the, the, the hallmark Really? They just don't want it. Yeah. And, you know, it's also important to bring in, uh, I, I mean, it's prob obvious, but it's, I think worth saying that our mothers also have nervous systems. Yes, yes, yes. And they have their own little default like responses. Right. Like I, you know, I think people pleasing for some of us is our default. Like mine is freeze fa, you know, and people Please, which is on that sort of dorsal, vagal side of the Yes. The farm. Yeah. And you know, my mom is over there with fight for sure. And you know, again, once I real, like I realized it, this was, you know, two or three years ago, and I'm like, oh, I see what's happening here. Like, we, both of us perceive a threat. Yeah. Like unconsciously. Yeah. And I'm over there like deer in the headlights and she's like, come on, put'em up. You know? So interesting. Yeah, and I think that when we are, I mean, I'm, I'm having like five thoughts at the same time. Like, number one, when we are thinking about the relationship that we want, no one ever tells us. You get to decide exactly what that looks like. It's, it's, it's yours to define and to decide, and then how to deal with the pushback, right? Whether it's, whether it's even just from our own nervous systems or from other family members or from, you know, the, the, the ideas that we are taught to believe about what a relationship with our mother should look like. There, there are a lot of things to kind of contend with and settle so that we can really make that choice. Yes. I, I often like to put it this way, that like we, meaning, I don't know, I don't know how even to, to like categorize it, but there are a number of people in the world who are on sort of a leading edge of the discomfort of like, of doing these things. And, and I'll be, it's interesting because my mom was estranged from her mom, so it's not even like new to me. Like, it's not like, you know, it's interesting how like, I, I have admiration for my mom and some of the traces that she made as a young woman. Um, Because she was on the leading edge too, like for her generation, if that makes sense. You know, she got divorced when I was two, and this was like early sixties, mid sixties. And she got herself on an airplane. She was 24, 25 years old from New York, I guess we live in Connecticut and flew to Mexico so she could get a quickie divorce by herself in 19, whatever it is. And I'm like, what a badass, you know? And so like, it is uncomfortable and the more of us who learn this and who embody it and you know, teach it to our kids, our sisters, our siblings are, you know, I, I do have stepkids and grandkids at this point, but like, um, right. We're. We're modeling for them. So it's, it will be easier at some point, I think, to have different kinds of relationships unless we're just screwing it all up for them. I don't know. Who knows? And things right. 10 things wrong people. It just constant combination. So I heard you say a couple things that I just kind of wanna go back to and it, it sounded like, you know, there's a recipe for like engaging with your mom and you said, number one, I know who I am, I know who I am and I know what I want. And then you didn't really say it this way, I'm just gonna kind of put it into words and you tell me if, if I heard it right, like, and I know how to use boundaries in my favor to shape our relationship, given that I know who I am and what I want. Yeah, a hundred percent. I see boundaries as not, I mean, I think a lot of times, When people hear the word boundaries, they think punishment. They think that's for bad people. You only need to have boundaries with bad people. Right. Um, and I see boundaries as both. What do I wanna keep out? Like as you said earlier, right? Like, that behavior just doesn't work for me, right? And it's, but you go for it. Like, it's okay if you wanna have that, whatever. Great. I'll catch you next time. Right? Um, so what do I wanna keep out, but also what do I wanna grow in the relationship? And there, let, before we go on, I just wanna hear your definition of what a boundary is. Oh, dear. Um, I dunno if I have an exact definition. I mean, what I was going to say is obviously we learned at the life coach school what that boundary is, which is a, a request that we can make of somebody else. And, and if they don't wanna, um, honor that request, then we decide what we will do. And when it comes to mother-daughter relationships, I've added two things into that equation. One is value. What, what do I value? Right? So like, if I value respect, which okay, that's a real easy, basic one, right? But like, respect is important to me. And so how can I bring respect into my request and my action that I will take if she doesn't want to honor my request? And then I also, and again, the way I see it is that this equation, if you will, doesn't have to have all the pieces, but you can have, have them if you want. And the fourth one is what is the benefit to the relationship? If you're willing to respect this request. Right. So for example, like a common thing I hear is, you know, she calls me all the time, she calls me every day, I don't wanna talk to her that much. You know, et cetera. And so you could say, you know, I value quality time, not quantity. That's my value. So mom, I'm going to call you or call me once a week on Sundays at noon or whatever, right? If you don't, if you call me at other times, I won't answer the phone. And the benefit though is, you know, Sundays at noon, you've got me, got my full attention. I love those additions. Yeah. Yeah. It helps ground us in the why, like why am I making this request or why is this boundary important to me? And the benefit to both of us, yeah. If it is respected, is actually something better. Right. I love that. And the, the thing too about boundaries is that all of that doesn't have to be communicated. Like pieces of it can be, um, you know, parts of it is just, you know, you have your, what you're going to do and you just do it. You don't have to say if you, you know, if you call me at other times, I won't answer, just don't answer right now. It depends, right? It depends on the nature of the relationship, all the things that, um, there's my cat. Um, like I really love the idea of setting what I call energetic boundaries, right? Like it's having that clarity of who you are. So clear that like your energy, your actions speak for you. And like, I, I, um, Uh, you know, from the perspective of, of nervous system stuff, right. Learning how to have a little bit more, uh, fight in me, not, not like aggressive, you know, angry, but more like, you know, an, an animal will growl to say back off. Right? Like you're getting too close. And so like, I call it the inner growl, right? Which is just like I, and I've practiced this, I practice this so that when I'm with my mom, I can turn it on if I need to. Yeah. And you're fighting for yourself. Exactly. Yeah. That's, that's what's so powerful about this, is that I am a part of this relationship and I will not lose myself in it. Exactly. And wait for myself. Yeah. I love that. And. You know, it's, it's, it's fascinating to watch my mom when I'm like that. It's like, you know, do you know who Maggie Reyes is? Right? Of course. Yes, of course. Yeah. One time she shared this video that I love so much, and it's this guy and he has like a, I think it's like a metal table, like a round metal table, and there's all this sand on it. And he has this like little instrument thing that he like rubs on the side of the table and the sand shifts into like a pattern. And then he takes another tool, I don't know what it is, it's like bigger and it's like a different frequency. And so can he does that one. Then the sha the sand shifts into a new, um, pattern and it's like, that's, that's what we're like, we're changing our frequency. Yes, with our mothers and then the sh the sand shifts and like the relationship changes and it's really, really, really subtle. Like, like, she might not even know. Yeah. Yeah. That, that's, that's brilliant. I love, I love the addition of that and energetic boundaries. That's like, that gives me a lot to think about. And I wanted to share that. Um, there's, I did boundary work with a woman named Randy Buckley, who has a program called Healthy Boundaries for Kind People. And I learned a lot of the bringing in the values and like, really this is like the point of knowing who you are when you think about it, right? Is like the literal boundary of you. Yeah. Right. The shape of who you are and when you know that really, really clearly, obviously physically, but also values, traits, you know, thoughts like all of that. The clearer you are, right? People know how they fit with you. Yes. So when someone, I'm, I'm thinking about even, you know, my own daughter, she's 21, and I always wanted to have a beautiful relationship with her. And I feel like I, we do and with, with all of my children. And, and I know, you know, we're specifically talking about kind of that mother-daughter dynamic. So just to kind of focus on her for a second, what can a, someone who is investigating their relationship with their mother, like if they wanted to, is it some questions you ask yourself? What? Like, what if someone comes to you and says, I just, I'm interested in kind of knowing a little bit more about how this primal relationship affects me. What advice would you have for them? Um, I would say, I would ask them, What do you think your mother's story is about you? Like what, what are your mother's thoughts about you? Um, that's great question. And do you agree? Yeah. And, and do you agree? Do you think that that's who you are too? And if not, I mean, maybe some of it is, some of it's not. Right. Who in like, you know, um, I, I have another book called the Difficult Mother-Daughter Relationship Journal, and there's tons of questions in there. Yeah. I love that you've telling us about these things And where are they available? Amazon and everywhere. Like, I don't know if they're all in like, big, huge bookstores, but you can Amazon. Okay. Amazon in like the independent, um, all anything online you can find it. First thing is what are my mother's, what are, what is my best guess about what my mom thinks of me? Yeah, her about me. Yeah. And then question number two, do I agree? What do I think of that? Yeah. Is that, do I like that? Do I agree? Do I want to agree? Do I not wanna agree? Right. Well, cause like, as you said earlier, right, we're not taught to question, uh, yeah. Yeah. And, and those stories, like if I agree, I'm trying to live up to that story that she has of me. Right. And, um, I, I talk a lot, you know, with my clients about the roles that either were handed to us or that we picked up along the way. It sounds like this kind of meshes with this as well. It's like, what are the roles that I saw my mom act in? And then to what degree did I think I had to be like that? Yeah. And what are the roles that she handed me? How do I still, and, and, and all of this, like, I. I think I have a great relationship with my mom. I'm the oldest of six children, and so I was the helper and I was rewarded for helping. Um, there was a lot of, you know, work to be done. And, and so the helper was just kind of who I was. And so now I, you know, look around the room like, what do you need? Can I help you? Are you okay? Can I get you something? So even just uncovering in terms of roles, like how did, what are the roles that were handed to me? What are the roles that I currently inhabit and how does that connect to my mom? And do I like that? Do I wanna keep doing that? Yeah. Such a, yeah. And it's, I, I also work with moms. I work with mothers who want to have a better relationship with their adult daughters. Um, okay. And, and they, you can ask, they can ask themselves the same questions right? About their own mothers, but also about like, what do you think is your daughter's story about you? Is that true? Like is there something that needs to be corrected there? Maybe, you know, or, you know, it's, it's endless really. Yeah. Um, I'm just realizing that in what seems to only be explainable as the divine timing of the universe, this episode is going to air right before Mother's Day. And I see that in your work you have this practice of writing love notes. Hmm. And the ones that you've posted that I have read seem to be an attempt to reshape are are thinking a of what a love note is cuz it's not just I love you, you're amazing. You're right. Yeah. Uh, but can you, can you say a little bit more about where that practice came from and, and how you use it? My love notes? Yeah. It started with blogging back in the day, I mean, You know, I, as I said, I'm a writer and I, um, wrote professionally for y you know, years. Um, but I didn't start, like, I wasn't a kid who had a di I had a diary like one year. I'm not like somebody who journaled their whole life. I don't know what it was about the internet in 2009. I mean, I was struggling with some stuff and I, um, body image, which is a whole other huge mother-daughter thing, but I started blogging and I couldn't stop. And so I think the love notes just sort of came out of that. And then like, okay, now you're a coach, so you can teach people things or, you know, share. But a lot of it, some of it's stories, you know, my own stuff when I'm struggling or, you know, other clients I love playing. Dear Abby, um, So, you know, it's just, it's just like who I am. It's not, it's like I can't not do it. It's like breathing. Okay. And what have you learned? I mean, I was just reading through, you know, some of your love note for, for Mother's Day, and what have you learned about the ability of humans to rewrite their understanding of love, rewrite their relationships with other people through like, actually writing. Wow. Um, so there's an author who died, I don't know how many years ago. His name was, um, oh shoot, I'm gonna forget his name. He wrote the Prince of Ti, pat Conroy. And when he died, I read an article about, and I loved his books, and I, there was an article about him and in the article he said, he was quoted as saying, I write to explain my life to myself. And I find that when I do that, I help explain other people's lives to them. Yeah. Um, I've also said that writing saved my life. Writing saves my life. Like, it's just, it's how I know myself. Uh, it's, it's hard to explain or maybe it's easy. Um, but, and I know not everybody journals, and I don't think that everybody should journal necessarily. Like with my clients, I, I have all the worksheets, all that, you know, journal prompts, all that stuff. And I don't think that they necessarily, I. Get something out of it. If they, um, if they don't do it or they, if they, they don't get some, what, what am I trying to say? It's not like they can't get it if they don't journal, but for those who do, it's like just the icing on the cake maybe. I don't know. I feel like I'm kind of stumbling around here. I'm not, no, I mean, it's, I, I, I think what it is is, is just a, a beautiful medium. One that I have, um, not explored very much, but, um, when you say I write, you know, I write to explain myself, to me that is such a beautiful, beautiful encapsulation of what the practice does. And I wanna read a little bit of something that you wrote and actually wanna correct. This is gonna come out the week after Mother's Day, but that doesn't matter because we're always, you know, working out this, um, this relationship. Here's what you wrote. I want to you, you said What is worth celebrating is Mother Energy and how far we've come in our journeys. And to remind you and me that the unconditional love we crave is available to us because it is inside of us. It is inside you. It is inside me. We do not have to wait for her to change, in order to receive it and feel it, nor do we have to wait to be perfect ourselves in order to receive it and feel it. We can claim it and access it, and connect directly to Mother Energy. Place your hands over your heart and repeat after me. I am here. I am alive. I don't have to be any different than I am in this very moment in order to feel and receive love. I am choosing to love myself again now without condition, and I will choose it again and again. And again, I wrote that and that, that's a love note, man. That is, that's just such a beautiful, beautiful, loving expression of the sovereignty of each of us, even in these relationships that feel kind of so tangled and, and, um, and sometimes hard to find out. Like, where, where am I? Where do I end up? You know, where's my ending? And this other person's beginning. Yeah. Yeah. You wrote that. I know, I know. I did. Um, yeah. You know, again, because I, it took me a really long time to be able to, Access mo what I, you know, call there mother energy. Mm-hmm. Because I'm not a mom and, uh, you know, going through, I had all kinds of, I never had the desire to be a mom, so it's not like, oh, maybe I wanted to and I just couldn't. Um, but I still, it was still, there was a lot of reckoning and a lot of like, stuff that I had to get through to get to this other side of like recognizing that it does exist within me, even if I'm not, you know, a biological mother. And, um, and, and for a long time I actually resisted anything having to do with it. Like, don't call me a mother. I'm not a mother. Like, ugh. You know? Um, yeah. That's, and having, oh, go ahead. No, you first. Go ahead. Well, I was gonna say, I mean, having stepkids, you know, and like seeing other stepmothers and their relationship with their kids and like their stepkids and, you know, like comparing myself, seeing all the ways that I thought I was falling short. Oh, speaking of that, it was probably about five years ago that I realized just how much I was people pleasing, especially my stepdaughter. Like her whole, the whole time, basically from the time sh I met her when she was nine and like now she's 37. Yeah. And close up everywhere. And we had this moment. It was not a pleasant moment. Um, but we got through it and it was like, like I saw it exactly what was happening. Like, oh, I'm like, people pleasing are up and people like, she doesn't know who I am actually. And now that I'm being more myself around her, it's just different. It's much better. It's freer, right? There's like, it's just, ah, yes. So again, same thing. I know who I am. Yeah. And the boundaries that I have reflect my values and they reflect how I want this relationship to grow and, and to be benefited by these, you know, limitations that I place on me and other people. Because it is ultimately for our good, for the good of this relationship. Yeah. Yeah. I've also heard it said that, you know, boundaries are how other people get us at our best. Oh, I love that. Isn't that great? I don't know who said it, but that is so great. Um, gosh, I feel like we could keep talking for another three hours. Is there anything that we didn't cover that you really wanted to say? No, I mean, it, it's a right, to use the overused phrase, it's a journey. Um, you know, we don't just flip the switch and okay, everything's good now. It's, and it's hard. Uh, you know, not everybody wants to do this kind of depth, and, and that's fine too. But, um, it's also like the hardest and the most life-affirming thing I've ever done is to like, delve into this for myself. Yeah. Yeah. And like, wouldn't trade it for the world, even though, you know, some really shitty stuff. Do. Oh, this has been so good. I think the thing that just, I love the way you've updated boundaries. I'm definitely gonna say my brilliant friend Karen, this is how she explains boundaries and, and share that with the people that I work with. If people want to know more about working with you, where can they tell? Tell me a little about how, about how you do this work with your clients. So I only do one-on-one work. I have people pleased my, or people pleased others by thinking I should, you know, do groups and stuff. And I hate doing groups. Um, I don't know that might change someday, but I do one-on-one work, inver, various time increments, you know, make it easy for people. Some people just want one session. That's cool. You wanna work with me for six months? That's cool. Um, and my website is k c l anderson.com. And on that, on my website, you can get like a boundaries. Thing that I wrote, which includes that, um, oh, perfect thing in it. So, yeah. And um, basically I see the work as three things, creating intent or creating, um, like sort of on demand safety, right? Creating an intentional identity, which then informs creating boundaries. So those are like the three, the three pillars of my work. Well, I, I mean, you can tell my brain is like going on some things that, that we've talked about. It's been so helpful for me and I've just loved having this conversation with you. Karen, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much. And Happy Mother's Day. Mother's Day, even though this is gonna air after, right? Every day is Mother's Day. For sure. Thanks, Karen. Thanks.