Episode 65 - The People Pleaser's Guide to Co-Parenting with Mikki Gardner

I really enjoyed my insightful and empowering conversation with this week’s guest, Mikki Gardner. Mikki is a mom to a teenage son, a Certified Life + Conscious Parenting Coach, the host of the Co-Parenting with Confidence podcast, and the bestselling author of the People Pleasers Guide to Co-Parenting Well. After navigating her own divorce hurdles and emerging stronger, she has made it her mission to help moms gain clarity so they can navigate divorce and co-parent with love and confidence. This week, we discuss co-parenting, whether we are still married to the person we're co-parenting with or not, whether they're another family member or someone else with whom we have a relationship. Mikki shares beautiful parenting principles and practical strategies on how to break free from societal conditioning and shift your energy to move away from what you don’t want and towards what you do want so you can be the actively loving parent your child needs. I can’t wait for you to listen.

Find Mikki here:
https://www.mikkigardner.com
https://www.instagram.com/MikkiGardner

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Transcript

0:51

Hi, I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation with Mickey Gardner. She is a coach. She is an author. She is a mom. She wrote a book called the people pleaser's guide to co parenting. And in this episode, she lays out a really beautiful way to look at all of our co parenting relationships, whether we are still married to the person we're co parenting with, or not, whether they're another family member, or someone else with which we have a relationship. There's some really beautiful principles and guidelines. That she teaches either. I think you're going to find really helpful. I have Mickey Gardner with me. Mickey is an author and coach and she has written a book that I think is so relevant for people who are in her specific dynamic, which I'm going to let her describe, but just for people in general, because I think as we've talked about, uh, what we want to make sure we. Talk about today in the episode, it just applies no matter what your situation is. Would you agree with that? A hundred percent. I say that I'm a co parenting coach, but I really think these co parenting skills are just adulting skills, right? So many of us didn't learn how to adult in the world. And so this is what we're doing. And so, yeah, I think this conversation is applicable. So if you're co parenting, whether that means with a husband or, you know, a spouse or wife or, you know, an ax, whatever it is, we're constantly co parenting because it takes a village to raise Children. And so this conversation really is for any of us that are doing any of those things. Yeah. Well, tell me how you came to write this book, The People Pleaser's Guide to Co Parenting. Amazing. Thank you. Yeah. Well, so I am a certified life and conscious parenting coach, um, and I really do focus on co parenting. I have a podcast too called Co Parenting with Confidence. And I came to it, I think, like so many of us come to the work that we're doing because I needed to learn. I, um, was very much, I've been a people pleaser all my life. I personally love people pleasers. I think we're amazing. I mean, who doesn't love us? We do all the great things. We get everything done. We're awesome. Um, but there is a little shadow side of people pleasing. And so that's where I wrote the book from. It's like when people pleasing isn't awesome. And you know, I got married and I was a perfectionist, a complete control freak, you know, all of the things type a highly achieving, um, and I had built my life. Um, like I was supposed to. I did all the things. I checked all the boxes for a happy life. Um, come to find out, the checklist doesn't actually work every time. And I found myself. I know, I know. But I had a small child. My son was, uh, two years old. Um, and I found myself. In what felt like an instant, um, my marriage came crashing down, uh, in one evening and it wasn't in one evening looking back hindsight being 2020, but that's what it felt like. And that really put me on a path of trying to understand, um, myself, uh, what I had control over in the world, what I didn't have control over. Um, we ended up getting a divorce because that was the right thing for our family. Um, and I didn't come from, uh, you know, no one in my family was divorced at the time. I was really very much alone. And I think In that being alone, I made a lot of mistakes that I could have avoided, um, and things that impacted my son, um, and impacted me and my ex, um, you know, again, hindsight being 2020, but I really sort of went on this journey of figuring out how can I do this in a different way so that, um, that we can be a family in two houses. And so I sort of went on this really very long journey, um, of what ended up being healing myself. And then I found life coaching. And, um, I really loved it. I loved my coach. I love therapists. I'm all in on all of the things. I believe, you know, Strongly in a team. We all need a team to learn how to adult while in the world. And, um, so I really wanted to be able to give back so that women, especially cause I have a soft spot in my heart for single moms, it's just so alienating. The journey. Um, and. I don't want women to have to walk the journey alone like I did. Um, and back then it was 10 years ago, there wasn't quite as much, right? And so I really love to be, um, a guide and a mentor and a coach as they learn how to navigate this new transition in life, because that's what it is. And it's whether you're thinking about divorce, whether you're in the middle of the process or whether you're post divorce. Um, I really love being able to be there to help us learn how to do this with intention with purpose and with love because I think divorce can be done that way, but we have to really flip it on its head and start to look at it differently. I love that you. Broaden the net in the beginning of what you said, like, I mean, I'm co parenting, right? I'm, I'm married and we've married for 25 years and just as a side note, I no longer think that a marriage is successful because of length of time, right? It's, it's, it's, it's all about the, the, the fulfilling, uh, loving, you know, connecting belonging of that relationship. And if that isn't there, then. I do believe in that case, it is best to go find a relationship where that can exist. Um, and so I love that this is applicable to anyone who is working with another human to raise a child or multiple children. Absolutely. Absolutely. Even if it's grandparents or whomever, like whomever your co parents are with. So good. So good. Yeah, we just, it was interesting because we just went on a trip and I had to coordinate some things with my mom and she, I didn't think of it till just now, but she became my co parent for that time when I was gone and, and, um, kind of navigating her, her kind of. framework of how to raise children versus how my own children have been parented very differently and how to kind of let them co exist happily for that two weeks. It took some thinking and some pre planning on my part. Um, but then you also narrow this to the experience of single moms because you said it can be so alienating. What is it about that single mom dynamic that is so alienating? I'd love to just name that. Yeah, well, I think you touched on it a little bit. There is a profound and I'm going to speak for myself and many of my clients. There is a profound sense of failure. Um, the divorce conversation, you know, let's just speak to the United States. It's, you know, it's how many times have I heard from people? Oh, they're from a broken home, right? Or, oh, you don't want to do that. There's like all of this shame attached with it and divorce in and of itself, the way that we do it. Um, traditionally, right? You go to court and there's lawyers, which is a battle. Like, it's a fight from the get go. That is their job. And I'm not knocking lawyers. They, you know, it is necessary in some situations. But divorce is all about separation, taking sides, defining ownership, creating fences to contain other people. And that in and of itself creates a lot of conflict, creates a lot of like your side, my side, this and that. And it, it's a dividing line. And so when you look at it from that perspective, there's a lot of shame. There's a lot of fault. Right? And blame laid out and you can't help but internalize that, right? And women, right? Most of the moms, at least that I work with, these are really good, well intentioned mothers. They are just trying to do the best that they can for their children. And like you said, just because a marriage ends does not mean it was a failure, right? This idea of marriage From, you know, like, how many years, I mean, my grandparents were married 75 years, like, I can't even fathom, right, but for them, great, you, I love that you've been married 25 years, I am a proponent of marriage, when it works. And so, um, I really think we have to be able to open up the dialogue and to be able to start talking about this, not from a place of blame and shame, but from a place of what is it that you really want for you and your children. And if the marriage that you are in is not in support of that and cannot be sort of moved into a place of support of that, then yes, maybe we need to shift. But I really believe that we are here to create For lack of a better way to say it, I, it makes me feel good. I don't know that it makes everyone feel good. I believe that our job as parents is to create a soft place for our children to land in a harsh world. And if we cannot do that in the home that we are living in, then we need to shift and figure out how to do that. But that to me is moving towards something that you want, where the divorce process and where I think a lot of single moms really struggle is they're just reacting to what they don't want. And when we react to what we don't want. We give what we don't want more and more of our power. And so we really have to learn how to take that power back and to sort of ground ourselves and stand really firm and let what we don't want just kind of fall off us like tough one. Right. And be very singularly focused on what we do want and move our, all of our energy, our love, our attention, and our focus in that direction. Because when we are moving in that direction, It's never wrong, right? It's always going towards a place of love and strength and well being. And so that's where I really help, um, or, you know, what to help shift our perspective because everything in our society is telling us to react, right? Like we are just highly reactive. And then I think that's what we're seeing in society at large is we're just, and I always describe when I know I'm living in reactivity, when I feel like I'm living in a pinball machine. Right. It's like you wake up and all of a sudden you get shot out that long tube into this, all of these bright lights and these noises and these paddles and things coming at you and you get completely beat up and then you get dropped into a black hole and popped out on the side to just wait for someone to do it again. Right. And that's how so many of us are living. And that is out of control, right? That's where we feel out of control. We get upset. We get resentful. We get angry. We lose control of our emotions. Um, so what we want to do is actually, I call it taking responsibility. Um, and that's the ability to respond. So we've got to learn how to step back. I, that I think is going to be such an important part of our conversation. Before we get to that, I just want to kind of piggyback on some of the things that you said. And one of the lenses that I use, um, when I coach is the lens of, of feminism and recognizing and understanding our internalized, Patriarchal programming that tells us as women that we are more valuable in a relationship than out of a relationship that if someone has chosen us in my fingers are making absolute quote marks around that we're chosen when someone else has chosen us, that makes us, um, of higher values in, in society economically. Um, and. I don't think we are free of that programming yet. No, oh gosh, no. Yeah. And so when you, when you talk about like the broken home and it's, it's, um, it's, It's, uh, impact on like the individual psyches of these moms, there's also the social psyche that we are all managing of what does it mean now that I'm not partnered? What does it mean now that, that, um, someone once chose me and now maybe isn't choosing me anymore? What does it mean that I'm not choosing someone anymore? I'm a proponent of marriage. When you. Like what you said, when it works and when you choose it and when you are constantly in the choice of re choosing it. And that's something that I've talked about with my own marriage and previous podcast is that it is something that we have each had to re choose multiple times. As we have become completely different people than we were when we got married 25 years ago. But then the second component that I think just cannot be overstated is that self sacrifice for a woman is should be your breathing, waking, you know, goal and that so many women are sacrificing themselves for their children to stay in a relationship that does not work for them. And I know that that's a separate conversation, but I just wanted to name it because I know so many of the people who are listening to this, the self sacrifice component continues, even sometimes after you choose to divorce and the fact that I, I am the last on the list, or I'm not even on the list when it comes to meeting needs and meeting wants. And so. Just naming that those are two of the biggest drivers of the shame and the guilt and the blame that women feel that they are more valuable in a relationship than out and that they should, they should work hard enough to make this relationship work, even if it means. The sacrifice of themselves and their needs and ultimately of the time that makes up our life. Right. This life exists in the hours and the minutes of every day. And for so many women, it's so hard to put themselves on the list of people who deserve to have a beautiful, fulfilling life because they're so busy creating a beautiful, filling life for their children and partners. Oh my gosh, Sarah. Yes, 100, 100%. And, you know, I think it's so easy to abandon ourselves. And there is, like you said, there is so much ingrained in us, just, we are conditioned to believe that a good mom has no needs, doesn't, you know, doesn't need anything from anyone, doesn't have an opinion, can go and go and go and go and go. Right. Yes. I mean, who the heck ever decided, you know, you look back at those, um, In the 80s, they had those commercials of like, you know, the lady in the power suit with the big shoulder pads and then she'd come home and cook dinner and then she's got like sexy lingerie on. No, thank you. First of all, like, no, thank you. I'd rather get some sleep and, you know, have like a long walk than any of what she's doing. But we've literally been conditioned that this idea that we can do it all and that we should be doing it all. Yeah. And it's just ridiculous. And we really have to step in and say, sort of like call BS where it needs to be called. And I think divorce is one of those places because we all just think, Oh, well, you know, this is how it's done. And that was one of the things that I really struggled with in the very beginning when I decided, um, that I was going to get divorced, you know, we had tried, um, you know, my marriage ended after betrayal and infidelity. And We tried, right, for months and months and months, and it just, you know, I think that relationships can heal from betrayal and infidelity when two people want to, right? What I learned is it takes two. And so for our situation, that wasn't the situation. So I had a night where my husband and I, then husband, had yet another fight that went from 0 to 60 in like 0. 2 seconds. And I was driving home, and I remember, Pulled over on the side of the freeway. And I heard a voice say, is this what you want your son to see of his mother? And in that moment, I realized I am the example for him of what it looks like to be a wife, a mom, a partner, an ex, a woman, like all the things. That's me. That is my job. I'm the example. And in that moment, no, I wasn't being that person. And so that's when I decided I actually have to, I have to divorce for the betterment of my family. And so I in that moment was going towards what I didn't know then, but it felt aligned for me because I was going towards what I wanted instead of running from what I didn't. And I got up the next morning, made us a cup of coffee, sat my then husband down and said, like, we're going to call it while we can still look at each other while we still have some warm fuzzies, you know, there are few and far between, I didn't know how we were going to do it. Yeah. Right. And I then went on a few years span of trying to be the best divorce person you have ever seen, right? Like, like everything else I do in life, I'm like, I'm going to be the best at this. And I went full force into trying to control that, right? That ended badly too. I write about it in the book, but, um, You know, having looked back, it's really we have to be willing to not to not know what we don't know. Right. But again, really decide what is it that I want? What is it that I value? And what's most important? And then how do I start walking step by step by step by step towards that? And part of it is getting rid of all that conditioning. Um, or at least acknowledging its existence and being willing to look at something from a different perspective, a different framework. It's so interesting. I mean, I, during all my podcasts, I have a little document open where I'm typing notes and questions and I'm like typing furiously while I'm listening to you because there's so many things that you just said that I, that I, um, want to, to not forget. I also just want to add that, you know, your, when you were talking about being the example for your son of, uh, Like being married and that you're also the example of what it looks like to him to be loved, to be connected, to be respected, to be a human, to matter, to take up space, to advocate for yourself. Right. And so it's not just, we are the example for our children of Married people, but human people, what it's like to, to, to matter and to have a place that we take up words that we say that point people to what we need and how we want to be treated, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable, how to set a boundary, how to hold a boundary like that's all of that is what our children learn from us. And the thing that. Was just so, I mean, side note, you know, quick side story in our travels. Uh, my husband, I just went on a trip a couple of weeks ago. We were waiting to catch, um, uh, uh, uh, an inter, um, an airport train. Let's just call that between terminals. And there was a family next to us that they had gotten off on the wrong tram stop. The husband was yelling at the wife or the male was yelling at the female. And maybe I shouldn't assume they were married. And I was watching their children. And I was watching the eyes of a little girl as she looked back and forth between she would look at the dad, the dad was saying to the mom, sorry, is not good enough. Sorry is not enough. Now we're going to miss our flight because of you. And I'm watching the girl and the wife is just Crying and saying, I'm so sorry. I thought this was the right stuff. And I'm in that moment. I'm watching the girl watch what it is like to be a woman treated this way by a man. And just knowing that this to her is teaching her what it is like to be loved. Like, this is normal in a relationship. This is and so I don't, you know, I don't think we need to dwell on that part of this dynamic too much, but, um, not that it can be dwelt on too much, but that our children also learn from us what it is like to be loved and held and safe and connected in relationships as well. And if that's. If that relationship is not providing them the, what, like, would we want our children to be in the same relationship we're in is what it comes down to. Right. It's like a thousand percent. Correct. And so I really just wanted to add that. Um, Yeah. And I think that's really important because for me that on the side of the road, that was the question being asked, is this what you want your son to see of, of being a wife and a partner? And that was a no. I know. I don't want him to think this is how you love a woman. I don't want him to think this is how you treat, right? Like, so for me, that was a hard no. I want to go back to, to what you just said though, and sort of double click on that because I think there probably is a woman listening to this right now who has been in the exact situation you just described for sure. And I know I have, right. I've been there. And I think one thing I want to say is Yes, it sucks that that's happening and it can be a teaching moment and a moment of resilience for our children. You know, conflict is meant to happen whenever you have a human relationship, right? And I'm not saying what he was doing was acceptable. It was not acceptable, but there also is just conflict that happens and words that are said and either we say them or other people say them, stopping to repair. Is one of the greatest things that we can do for our Children. It's not that the conflict is the bad part. What makes conflict so hard for children is when there is no repair. When they, when it's like the conflict happens or the words that are said, and then they're just left hanging there and then they have to make up a story about what that means. And for children, That story usually means there is something wrong with them because it is easier to believe that the parents are safe and right, and that they're the problem. Any child will sort of turn it that way. And so going back and saying, you know what? When your dad and I fought earlier, I know that must have been really scary, and I know there must have been words that were said, and it was really hard for me to be sitting there, you know, and not saying anything, and maybe even, I wish I could have spoken up in that moment, but in that moment I was really scared. But what I want you to know, Is that you don't ever have to be treated that way and that you are allowed to speak up, you know Whatever it is for you because I think we actually can stop and repair from any of that like make amends Say we're sorry, especially with our Children. When we I mean, how many times I just this morning I was driving my son to school. He was driving me bazonkers talking to a 14 year old boy. Sometimes I'm like, what on earth is even happened. I'm lost, lost. Most of the time, you know, so it's like I sometimes I don't remember react the way that I want to, or he'll tell me about something that happened with his dad. Right. And it's not about, again, shaming or blaming people or putting them down. But it's really about, you know, like, how did that make you feel? How did you feel in that moment and acknowledging and letting our children sort of voice what's going on for them? I think it's crucial and really important, especially just in life, but also in the divorce and co parenting. Yeah. Yeah. That's one of those co parenting things that matters no matter what your, you know, situation is married, separated, divorced, whatever. I love that you said that your definition of good co parenting is. Or just being a good parent is, uh, being a soft place for your child to land in a harsh world. What do you think the goal of co parenting is then? Same one. Same one. Same one. So here's the thing. And I know co parenting sounds like I'm going to tell you how to like, how do you guys do it together? Right. So that, that it's really awesome. My whole thing is you can be an amazing co parent regardless of what the other person is doing. I believe wholeheartedly, my mentor, Dr. Shefali Tisbury, always says children need one parent who is safe, who is loving, who is responsive, and who is present. And so your only job is to be that one parent. Most children, I mean, look at our world. Most, most children don't even get one. So if they get two, I mean, they've hit the jackpot. But let's just look at reality and your job is to be that one parent for these beautiful children that you brought into the world, who I also believe chose you, right? They knew exactly who they were getting when they came into your womb. They got it. They picked you, right? You're the perfect mom for them, the perfect parent. And so. Our job is simply to learn how to get out of our own way, right? And to be, we don't have to have all the answers, but how do we become, again, sort of that soft space for them to land? Because it is a harsh world, and we want them to be able to go out in the world and come back. Go out in the world and then come back, right? It's like, the other day I heard, um, do you want to be a nomad or an adventurer? Your children, right? And this really applies to like the divorced and co parenting conversation. It's like, what do you want for your children? An adventurer goes out and they just keep traveling and traveling and traveling and traveling. And there's like no home base, but they're just always traveling. But a nomad will go out into the world, explore, and then come back to their home and rest and then go out and do it again. Right? And so that to me is what we want to do. I guess. I'm sorry. It was nomad and explorer, right? We want to be an explorer where we have that home base. We have that safety of knowing like we have our little mass and then we can actually go out and experience the world in a different way versus the nomad experience is just moving and moving and moving. Um, so we can like look at it from that perspective. And so I believe that the point is to really just be that present. loving parent and loving makes it sound passive and soft and like, you know, just like whatever goes that is not loving in my definition, right? Loving someone is being willing to tell the truth, right? When whatever that truth is, it means protecting your wellbeing, which means speaking up with convictions, holding boundaries that actually protect your peace. Um, learning how to cultivate calmness. Right. So that we actually can start to make decisions that serve us, um, learning how to reclaim our freedom by letting go and saying goodbye to those conflicts so that we can actually welcome in the energy and the time and the space for what we want. So that's, that's the part of conversation that I'd like to turn to now because one of the things. You know, that you mentioned that you didn't know you were doing when you pulled your car over to the side of the road is that rather than just reacting to what you didn't want, you actually begun to move toward what you did want and what you did want to create for your life. That, that I think is hard enough to do when you are co parenting with someone you like and love and choose. In the divorced co parenting conversation, you are now doing that job with someone who sometimes, I mean, you're getting divorced for a reason, right? Maybe, maybe you do still have a lot of warm feelings and, and, and fuzzies. And also maybe they make your skin crawl and you can't stand to be in the same room with them. So let's talk about how do you move toward what it is that you actually want when you are doing this job with someone who you now can't stand. So stand them or can't stand them, right? Like both. It's still applies the same way. And it's really, again, going back to that sort of reactivity. I always ask, like, do, who do you want to be in charge of your emotion? Right? Your ex husband or you? Right. Because as long as we are just reacting to whatever they're saying or doing, we're giving all of our power to them because they're getting like where our attention goes, energy flows, right? So we have to really start to learn how to regulate our emotions in our nervous system so that we actually have the capability to choose differently. Right. I know we all hear a lot about nervous system regulation right now and you know what that means and trauma responses. The way I like to think about a regulated nervous system does not mean that I'm like super calm. It doesn't mean I'm like Buddha, just chilling on the rock, right? Having a regulated nervous system just means that I am at choice. I have, I am resourced enough that I am able to make choices. And that's a really important distinction because most of the time we are not, we're getting triggered or activated and we all know when we get triggered, right? It's like, we're totally overtaken. Right. Or distracted or shut down, right? Or in like a complete freeze response, any of those things are triggers. And so we need to just be able to recognize I'm being triggered. Learn some tools which are really, you know, sort of, they're all built into us. Just breathing is a really effective tool of calming down. I am, I talk ad nauseum about hitting the pause button. It's literally just hitting the pause button. I like to put my hand on my heart because it sort of connects me back and take three deep breaths in through my nose, out through my mouth. Do it three times. If I don't feel calmer, do it another three, right? It sounds ridiculous. It's pretty amazing. Because it actually allows you to calm yourself so that you can start to make some choices. How do I actually want to respond here? And I think because so much of the time, again, when we can't stand the other person or there's a lot of conflict, our baseline of what we're used to is reacting. And so we actually have to sort of train our body and train our emotions and our energy to be able to self regulate, to come back down, to create a lower baseline where we have choice, um, because either they get to choose how we react or we do. But you have to make that distinction for yourself. And so once we are able to at least recognize that we're triggered, start to calm ourselves down a little bit, well, this is where we have to really start to decide what's important to me, right? What are my values? That's one of the places I start with a lot of my clients is deciding what are the really one or two things that are most important, and we're going to use those as like the GPS. You know, you'd never get in your car, uh, to go, you know, to Disney World without knowing the destination to get there, right? You put it in the GPS and then, turn by turn, it tells you how to go. But so many times, we just get divorced and we think, oh, well, that was, that was the work, right? Like, now that part is done. Those, the person isn't in my life every day, so it's supposed to get easier. Right. But so many of my clients come to me a year or two later and say, well, I got divorced. It's supposed to be better. Why does it suck so bad? Well, because you're still acting the same way, just in two separate houses. Right. So we actually have to do the work to learn a new language, learn a new way to communicate. One of the analogies that I love analogies. Um, I, and one of them that I like to use is that when you are co parenting with someone, you are on the same team. Right. So we have to take a team approach here, meaning think about any good football team, they would never just go out and play a game, right? No, they have a rule book. They have a playbook, they practice, they do workouts. They look at their diet. They have sleep routines, right? They have all, they have all of this coaching staff. They've got trainers, right? They've got everything they need, but when they are out on that field, they're all standing. side by side, looking out at the field, solving that problem. Right. And this is where, when we are in an adversarial position and I'm sitting here, like when we're sitting across the table from one another, right. It's like very adversarial. It's me against you, right. Versus we've got to come over to the side and recognize that we are actually a team for children. So we want our children to be center in our relationship, not in the middle. And so we have to really get on the same side of the table and yes, it might be the last person in the world that you want to be on a team with, but you are. And so we have to sort of, like, decide, do I want to be a team player or do I don't? And if you want to be not a team player and high conflict, Okay. Right. Some people choose that. We're not, I'm not gonna, I'm not going to say anything about it. That's their choice, but it doesn't mean that you have to choose that just because they do. And that's where you really get to start to make some decisions about how do I want to show up differently? And that's why deciding what are my priorities and my values so that I can use that as my, as my GPS. And then I can start to reverse engineer. Okay. What are all the actions, the beliefs, the feelings, the things that I'm going to have to do to keep going in the direction that I want to go? And sometimes that means letting go. Sometimes that means giving in. Sometimes it means taking a stand, but doing it from a place of choice. So here's what I heard. Number one, a regulated nervous system. Um, that is, I mean, if we could have. Better nervous system regulation skills just as a whole, um, the, I can't even begin to think of how the world would change, but it starts with each individual person, um, pausing, pausing, pausing, pausing, that's, it's actually the first step I teach also in when you're, you have to pause because the same. The same programming that you've always acted from is just going to take you down those same neural pathways that they've always taken you down unless you can pause. And I really like your definition of being at a point where you can make a conscious choice means that your nervous system is sufficiently regulated, at least maybe for that moment, and then Number two, deciding what is important based on your values, the one or two things that really matter to you. The one thing I wanted to add is that I think what makes this a little trickier is that we know where Disney world is, right? We know that destination, but this journey that we're talking about, we, we've never done it before. And. We're not going to get the turn by turn directions from, you know, because it's, it's, it's a new place, but we create the turn by turn directions in step number three, when you talk about reverse engineering, like what are all of the skills, what do I need to believe? What do I need to learn how to do? What do I need to stop doing to create that life? And so it's not, you are not just kind of left to go it alone when you. Have taken the time to really decide on what those important things are, because that's, what's going to guide the decisions that, that you make. And I think that's what happens in a marriage, right? When you're co parenting married and it's, and, and even in a marriage, sometimes you don't want to be on the same side, the same as your spouse. I've absolutely experienced that, you know, and so it's, It is just so universally, universally applicable. Absolutely. And I think, you know, so many people will say, well, it's the divorce that's causing this conflict. Actually. No, you probably had this conflict while you were married, right? It's just now you're divorced. So it feels like we can just sort of throw it on there, but to your point, exactly, we're all dealing with this, but you know, I call it really learning how, so I have a three step framework I teach, which is just really awareness. Right? Agency. Those fancy word for choices and then aligned action, and it's that aligned action does. We don't know that, like you said, the turn by turn directions, right? There's no rule book for this, but what we can start to ask ourselves when we are a little bit more regulated, when we are a little bit more grounded, what is the next thing I can do that would at least shift me in the direction of where I want to go, right? So if boundaries are important. Or if, um, your children's You know, I, I can't think of one right now, but like if wellbeing is really important or sleep or, you know, whatever it is, what is going to get me closer to that and you go there and then when you do that action, you're going to learn something new, right? And then more choices are going to become available. And it's really learning to allow the unfolding to happen and pivoting and learning and growing. Along the way. So, but we can only do that from that regulated state where we can start to really see what are the choices because we always have them. We might not like them, but there's always choices available. And how can we choose the 1 that's actually aligned with who we want to be and where we want to go? I think. I mean, that regulated nervous system just can't the importance of it, the value of it. And not be overstated because they're just the the the pinball analogy. I love that. That is an unregulated never say, and nobody teaches us right. Nobody. Nobody helps us slow down and pause and recognize where we are. Disregulated where the, you know, the, the emotions have taken over to the point where we aren't making clear choices where we need to understand what our emotions are trying to tell us and what they're trying to make us aware of nobody teaches us that. And so it is 1 of the absolutely essential skills. That we have to have to be able to reverse engineer that life that we really want. So I think a question that I know a lot of people will have is, you know, you, you and your co parent, whether they are X or not, are two of the people in this dynamic. And then there's the children. So how much of this Do you bring the child in on how do you message to your child like, Hey, dad and I, or, you know, my ex has whatever the, the, the situation is, we are trying to figure this out together. Just tell me about that part of the, this, this dynamic. Yeah. So if you, if you and your other co parent whom wherever they are can agree. That you will not disparage one another. That's like the gold standard, right? That would be the best I think we can ask for. Um, sometimes that's an option. Sometimes it's not. I am a firm believer that children should not be collateral damage in adult relationships. If the relationship did not work out, that is between two adults and that should stay between two adults. Now, I'm not saying to leave children in the dark because that actually confuses them more when things aren't set. So we do have to, and this is all age and stage appropriate, right? The way I talked to my son when he was three is very different from the way that I talk to him although the messaging is very much the same. You know, I tell him your dad and I Are better parents to you, not married, than we are married. And so we made a choice to love all of us enough to get divorced. He has no idea what this means. I don't know that I have any idea what this means. But what I do know is that I'm not disparaging. I'm not putting blame on anybody. And I'm focusing on the fact that we love him and we love our family. Enough to do the best we can. So the reason I bring that up is I think everyone has their own message, but it is so important to not put your Children in the middle. Your Children, I believe, should be center. They are like the sun that we revolve around, right? That is, that is their job. And it's not their job to mediate. Or, you know, make anybody feel better about the situation. So, I try to, I believe strongly in minimizing the conversation as to the adult issues. And focusing on helping the child understand what you have is two parents who love you very much. And you might have two parents that don't agree with each other, and we're trying to figure that out. And, you know, you can let your children speak openly, even when they're little. Like, when they say, you know, I don't want, you guys have to stop fighting. You know, you don't have to say, well, your dad is the one that's always coming and doing that, and I can't, you know, whatever it is. But you could say, Oh, how does that make you feel? That must be scary. It must feel really, you know, or let them give you the words and simply validate how they're feeling about it. Right? Oftentimes they're not asking us to justify it or explain it or fix it. They just want to know that somebody sees that. That somebody understands them and somebody loves them enough to listen. That's such a, I mean, I, I am a, I'm a, I love to blame and get angry at other people. And I, it is, it is a, it's a, it's a trait that I see in myself that I recognize and I working on and it's so humbling. To think about, like, if I were not married to my husband, really making the effort to not blame or try to make my children think that he was the bad guy. Gosh, that's just, that's so human, right? To, to want to do that. And yet when you center the experience of your child and how they are going to learn from who you want them to grow up to be, or the example that you want them to have, I think it really puts that, you know, really in, in perspective. And it's one of those, like if I were to divorce, that would definitely have to be one of those skills I would have to, to, to work on because I think it's so human to want to do that. Absolutely. And it's, it's, and I totally understand it and listen, there's been times I've done it really poorly, right? Where I haven't done it well. And there's days I do it, do it well. But the question I think we always have to be asking whose benefit is this for? Right. The argument or the blame or the trying to justify or, you know, wanting sympathy or whatever it is, is it for my child's wellbeing? Is it in their best interest or am I feeling something that I'm wanting sort of somebody to put a salve on? And if that's it, that's my job, right? That's my job to take care of my heart. Um, but as a mom, we have to really, what is in the best interest of the child? That's such an important, important, important question, and I think it's a skill to not lose what is important. Like if, if, if I, if I think it would feel really good to blame and get angry, that is in my best interest, but to center the experience of the child, I think is it's one of those skills to definitely have to learn. So then I think sometimes there is a, you know, there's the dynamic of you. There's the dynamic of the other co parent. There's the dynamic of the child. Then sometimes there's the dynamic of a new partner or new spouse for your now ex. What are your thoughts about how that plays into this? Listen, the whole, let's, let's just solve all the problems today, Nikki. I wish I could solve that one. Listen for myself and for everyone else, the blended family thing is challenging. I mean, it is just, it's like, it is like parenting and co parenting on steroids, right? Because you have other people involved and now there are other people. And here's the thing that I find. And it's like, There is, I don't know what it is about us humans, but we believe that we like after divorce, it is so common where I'm like, I've evolved, I'm growing, I'm learning, I'm doing all these things. But my ex is the exact person I divorced. It's like they go into a time capsule in our minds and they don't change one iota, even if we think they do. And then we've got this new person coming and we have all of the judgments and the beliefs about them. Right. And so then you, But they are like this stagnant, never changing unit, but we're like doing all the work, right? And so it's, I just pointed out because there's so much that's missed when we're assuming that we understand what's going on. And, you know, when we can learn how to be curious. Um, to not know what we don't know to be willing to ask questions. Um, that is where we can really learn and grow and keep our kids center. Um, that's easier said than done. Listen, learning how to accept another person into your child's life. Super difficult. And one of the things that I talk with mom so often is they'll ask me, when is it not going to hurt so bad? When my children are at the other person's house, or when am I going to be okay with the woman being in my kid's life? I don't know that you will be right. We are a mom 24 seven, three 65, regardless of if your children are at your house or the other co parents house. And it is unnatural children to be away from us, especially when we divorce with the littles. Yeah. I mean, I have clients that their Children are two years old and we're expecting the Children to go back and forth. This is ridiculous. It's ridiculous. It's unnatural. I just I get more and more passionate about that. We really have to change the structure of divorce because it is not in children's best interest. They are collateral damage in this. And I don't ever think that we should expect ourselves to be okay. When our children are away from us. Instead, what I want to do is learn how to acknowledge that it's really hard, learn how to acknowledge how much, how much I miss my child, and learn how to take that time. to refuel myself so that I actually am so filled up when my child comes home that I can be that soft place for them. I know what so many of us do is we're so dwelling on the fact that we miss our kids or that they're at the house with the other woman and it shouldn't be this way and I, I, I don't like it and we spend all of our time fuming on the problems. And then what that does is just deplete us. So then when we actually get our kids back, we're spent. Right? We're angry, we're bitter, we're resentful. Um, and we don't, we haven't really taken care of ourselves. So I think self care for single moms, this is not a bubble bath and a manicure. This is learning how to regulate our emotion. This is learning how to regulate our nervous system. This is taking care of our mind, our bodies, and our spirits. This is having a meal, right? Drinking enough water. Going to bed, like we're just animals. We're not super fancy. We just like need a night's sleep and a glass of water, right? It's not overly complicated, but we don't give ourselves those basic needs. And so I think when we're talking about how do we deal with the other person? How do we deal with new people coming in? Well, I always want to start with what is your relationship with you first? And are you really taking care of your needs? Are you really? owning your experience, getting the help you need, getting the support you need, loving yourself, caring for yourself. Then our kids are the next, right? Then we do that for them. Then the co parent and the other person come into play. Like they are so far down the list of priority. Like, I, I just really want to sort of normalize that we need to really be taking care of ourselves, first and foremost, so that we can, again, be resourced enough to have the capacity to take care of others, and then get to the point where we can talk about these other people. Right. And that didn't really answer your question, I realize, but I think it's important that we start by really taking Taking a look at how am I showing up and am I caring for myself? Because when I'm not, I'm going to be more reactive. I'm going to have a shorter fuse. And I'm going to have a much harder time trying to relate to a new person. Um, I know for myself with my, um, my ex's wife, now wife, they've gotten married and they have a little baby and they just got a puppy. I was just playing with it this morning. Very cute little puppy. Um, I had to make a choice on what I wanted to believe about her. I could believe that she was there to harm me and my child, or I could believe that she was one more person to love and care for my son. And so I chose to think about her as someone to love and care for my son. And I had to use that framework, even when I didn't believe it, to give her the benefit of the doubt, to give them the benefit of the doubt, and to learn how to not get so hooked in to all the stories that my head was telling me. All those assumptions I was making, all of the, um, sort of negativity that I was spiraling in. Um, I just, it's like being, being the mama bear and kind of saying, yep, we're not going to go there today. We're actually just going to believe that this person is one more person to love and care for my son. And if that is what I believe about them, how am I going to treat them? How am I going to show up? What am I going to do to support that? I think it's the only answer, though, that really can even begin to be an answer. So I think that you did answer it because it, it follows that theme that you've so beautifully laid out of going toward what I want instead of reacting to what I don't want. And that's going to be different for everyone. You have to look at what it is that you actually do want. Those one or two things that are driven and founded on your own values, because it is such an individual journey with different individuals involved in the mix in each situation. And what I love about what you're saying is that, you know, no matter what, the people that matter the most in the dynamic are you and your child or children. And that no matter what you can be that person for them, you can be the person who is the soft place, no matter what the other person is doing a hundred percent, a hundred percent. Is there anything that we haven't touched on that you just wanted to make sure got said? No, I think I I love the conversation that we've had. I just really want to reinforce. It's like the double click on you are the parent that your child needs and they you were given this child for a reason or children and you deserve love and care and you matter and they need you to believe that in your bones. Because you will teach them the same thing about themselves. And it is our job to love and care and respect ourselves so that we can teach people how to do that for ourselves. And listen, so many of us grew up and had really difficult situations, maybe didn't have parents that loved us and cared for us, and it makes it harder. And like we've talked about, we don't teach people in our society, how to adult. Right. We are basically teaching everyone to be like just adult toddlers running around having temper tantrums everywhere. So this work doesn't mean that you failed or that you're wrong. It just means we have more skills to learn. And so the more that we can come at it with from a loving place of learning and growing for ourselves and our children. Right. We, we make everything quicker and easier on ourselves. And so I just want you to know, especially for that single mom out there who is struggling to find her place, is feeling so sad. I mean, there's so much sadness. Um, you know, divorce is a grieving process. You have lost something that you loved, and we need to learn how to grieve it. and heal from that place. And it's not about fighting or battling or pushing or reacting. It's about loving and healing and giving ourselves the time and the space and the energy and the investment to really, really care for ourselves. Well, that I think is Profound and beautiful and the way that there can still be so much choice, even when something that you wanted to last that you started a marriage, a partnership intending, you know, for it to last, um, the grief that. Oh, there's just such, there's just such a load. And I will say as someone who has experienced grief inside of my marriage, when it was not all that I wanted and hoped it would be, and we had to decide, is this something we're going to work on together? Or is this something we're going to work on separately? Again, this is for everyone. It's for everyone who is in a relationship that. Didn't meet expectations. And that is all of us. And so I really appreciate the time and the care with which you have laid out, not just what you teach in your book, but how we've had this conversation. And if people want to learn more about you and where to find you and where to get your book, where can they do that? Yeah, so my website and Instagram are the two places that I think are the easiest. And it's just my name, which is Nikki, M I K K I, Gardner, G A R D N E R. Um, so I do a lot on Instagram. Again, I have a podcast, Co Parenting with Confidence, and I talk a lot about all of these things over there. And I have, um, That comes out every week. So I think that's the place and then the book of course Which you can get anywhere books are sold online But I just yeah, I I want you to know that there is support out there I know we feel so alone But there is support and I am a strong proponent of coaching of therapy of all the things Because it takes a village and we need support and learning and guiding. And so do yourself that favor. If, if you're feeling called, if it's not me, there's so many great people out there, but get help and get support because you and your children are worth that. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for this conversation. And thank you, Sarah, for all you're doing. I just, I love all the content you're putting out and your messaging and this podcast. And so thank you for all you're doing.