Episode 67 - Expanding Your Capacity for Pleasure with Danielle Savory

I’m excited to welcome Danielle Savory back to the show this week. Danielle is a master-certified coach, podcast host, and expert in neuropsychology, mindfulness, sexual pleasure, and intimacy. When she last joined us in episode 25, “Sexual Power with Danielle Savory,” she left us with the wisdom that “a woman's ability to be present in her body, to seek out and create pleasure for herself, to know what she wants and needs, and to be able to ask for it is the pinnacle of self-connection.” In this episode, we take a deep dive into what this means and explore the importance of giving ourselves permission to experience pleasure. Internal abuse and habitual social conditioning both take a toll on us, not just mentally but physically as well. By connecting with our bodies, we unlock the potential for healing and the ability to experience emotions exactly as we desire. It's a powerful journey toward self-discovery and fulfillment.⁠ I can’t wait for you to listen.  

Find Danielle here:
https://www.instagram.com/thepracticeofpleasure
https://www.daniellesavory.com/savory-starter

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https://sarafisk.coach
https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/
https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/
https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333
https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach
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Transcript

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You are listening to the ex good girl podcast, episode 67, you know, that's so many of the good girl rules are all about our bodies and how we are allowed to experience pleasure this episode with Danielle savory. Is really an invitation to be curious about what are the rules for you around pleasure and I'm not even just talking about sexual pleasure. I'm talking about all kinds of pleasure because the capacity that we have to receive and be available for pleasure is a pretty good indication of our extraction from those good girl rules. And so take a listen to this podcast. And just do a little pleasure assessment in your own life. And again, it's not just sexual. And then I would love to hear what you thought about this episode. Danielle is one of my favorite people to talk about this with. And I have found for me personally, that as I have opened myself up to pleasure, I have learned so much about myself. Enjoy the episode. I have had this episode in mind and been wanting to do it for almost a year because I have Danielle Savory with me. Our first podcast episode that we did together is number 25 back in July of 23. And I felt like we got to such a great place in that conversation. And then right at the end, you dropped this like bomb on me. And it was your description of How, and I, I'm going to paraphrase this possibly badly, and I want you to, to, um, add whatever needs to be added, but that a woman's ability to be present in her body to seek out and create pleasure for herself. To, um, to know what she wants and needs and to be able to ask for it is like the pinnacle of self connection. And I was just so fascinated by that. And since then, I've been paying a lot of attention to where I am in my own sexual experiences, how oftentimes I feel like I'm just a passenger, right? Just. Or, or we're just going through the same things that feel good and that produce an orgasm or just, you know, the desired closeness, but there isn't a lot of creativity or play and I don't necessarily think that's bad. I've just, it's made me kind of a student of my own experience in such a beautiful way. And so I really wanted to kind of go through or parse out, talk about this next. Peace with you about what happens to a woman when she decides, I want that, I want that comfort in my body. I want that co creative pleasure experience. I want to dominate, right? I want to ask for what I want. I want to try new things and just kind of what gets in the way of that. Yeah. I thought you'd be the perfect person to have that conversation with. Yeah, well, I think, you know, I think where we have to start with, even before like, what gets in the way is what is motivating us in the first place, you know, which goes hand in hand with what gets in the way. And, you know, why I think it's this beautiful, like, pinnacle really of intimacy with ourselves is because of what the growth, like the growth that it takes to really, you know, achieve that and to get there. And when I say achieve that, I don't mean like you reach a spot and like, you're all done, but to get to the place where you're in the pursuit, when you're in the practice, you know, there, there was an intention behind, you know, why I called my company, why I call my, like, I G like the practice of pleasure because it is a practice and as we continue to practice it, as we continue to pursue that practice, the woman that we become, the growth that happens, the places that we have to like really come to terms with or heal or be open to. continue to blossom through the journey. So when I say achieve it, it's not a destination, it's achieving the path. It's like, I'm finally on the path. Um, you know, even that to me is such a huge achievement. And so the motivation I think behind it is such an important factor when we're taking a look at this, because again, you know, as you and I talked about on the last podcast, as you have talked about on your podcast without me, right? Like all of the ways that as Women are those of us socialized as women have been self sacrificing, have put ourselves last, have been thinking about other people's needs. It's really hard to think about like, why would I do this when so much of why I would do something is tied to how it's in service of other people, how it's in service of our family or our community or the world at large. So looking even just at that first motivation and how do we really get our minds on board? Because once you start getting your mind on board, that's when you start seeing all the obstacles. That's when you start seeing all these things getting in the way, right? Is, is once you start the pursuit, once you actually start the practice, then we can see. And so I think that, you know, when we, when we talk about this, Whatever it takes to start your journey and your motivation, giving yourself permission that that's going to change and that in different seasons of the way that you're practicing pleasure or pursuing pleasure, your motivation is going to shift. It shifts for me almost on the daily. It shifts for me week by week because we are these constantly evolving beings and especially, you know, those of us that are. I have like female, you know, born assigned female with menstruating cycles and all of these sorts of things. There's also other factors that we're taking a look at here that is impacting, you know, where we're at in our cycle, where we're at in the season of our life. And so that is naturally going to become a different type of motivation. So I think it's so important for everyone when you're thinking about like taking this practice, like what are all the reasons that pleasure could be for me? What are all the reasons that the pursuit of pleasure is appealing or can be motivating? Because when your brain comes up against those obstacles, when you come up against those, those challenges, the place where you have to lean into vulnerability more, the place where you don't want to do your practice to regulate your nervous system, whatever it might be, the more that we kind of have in this bank of like, why it's good for us, how this can benefit me, how this can light me up, the more you have to pick and choose from. So it's like, For me, you know, maybe at one time it really is like this idea of like, I really want this like passionate, deep connection with my husband, you know, a lot of women that when I'm talking with them and they're starting with a, there's, there's a group of women. Who are already really involved in the self growth world, you know, other coaches, other, you know, self, you know, growth, like junkies, as they might call themselves, whatever it might be there on this personal growth journey. And they see it as this path of like personal growth. This is the next level for me. What could be available to me? What am I opening up? And then there's also people that, um, I work with that are feeling so disconnected and the motivation is just to get that connection back with their partner. It is to feel that passionate again. It is to bring that spark back. You know, for some people, I really see this idea of how it is going to, uh, influence the next generation, how this could, you know, influence, you know, my sons, my daughters, my children to be able to embrace their sexuality. And, um, you know, and then I talk with a lot of high achieving women where I really am working with them, showing them how it's brain optimization, how it's performance optimization, you know? So again, it's like, Picking and choosing these pieces, you know, but understanding that regardless of what that motivation starts with that path, once you start down it, there are going to be such deep levels of connection and trust and intimacy and self compassion that you're going to have to develop as you continue along that journey. I resonate so much with, um, so many of the things that, that you just said. And I want to kind of take it back to, you know, you, you talked about what is your motivation or fuel for the pursuit of this practice. And, and I think for me, it was just realizing how much of it I had just delegated to either my, my husband that I was just kind of the, the, the passenger. So I think. One of the first things that I had to see, and I just want to name this because I know that so many women listening to this will feel the same way. It's a change in my thinking about, you know, my life, you and I've talked about, you know, being raised Mormon and, and kind of the ways that that experience taught me to think about sex and the sexual experience and what my role was and what I was supposed to be and not be and do and not do. And, and so for a lot of women who are. You know, waking up in thirties or forties or fifties or sixties or seventies, right? About the type of experience that they, that they want to have. I feel like that waking up is such a, such a beautiful process. And also, like you said, that's when you start seeing the obstacles. Once you start waking up and you start realizing like, Oh, I don't actually know what I want. I actually feel very embarrassed to ask for what I want. I actually don't, um, don't know how, I don't have trust. I don't have the level of trust with my partner that I, that I, I need for them to be able to treat this request or this desire with the respect and the, uh, The gravity that it, you know, that it deserves. So tell me what you, once, once there is a fuel and motivation and someone decides like, yes, I want, I want to explore pleasure. I want a higher level. I want a higher degree of participation in my pleasure. What are some of the obstacles and challenges that are really common to run into? Yeah. Well, I mean, We can, we can name them as beliefs and thoughts, right? That's so much of it. We can also just pay attention to what's going on in our nervous system as a result of those subconscious beliefs, the ones that have been planted early on. So regardless of what way we kind of take a look at it, one of the main obstacles is that your body isn't open and available to pleasure. And this is so important to understand is that like I said, it can come in a variety of ways. And this is where it gets really fun. Like to me, the personal growth, like, you know, always learner here is like, I'm like, Ooh, what's in here? Like what's in this Pandora's box, right? Cause once you start to pay attention to your nervous system, you start to notice that it's shutting down. Like you feel it kind of clench up and tense up. Like you can actually feel, you know, those of us that are vulva owners, it feels like it's like your vagina is like crawling into your body, like it's closed for business. Right. And so you start to notice these signs, you start to have this awareness of, you know, even though this, I have this motivation and this feels good. I notice when, you know, my partner reaches out for me, My body tenses, I noticed that when I'm having a really long day and I have a lot of stuff going on in my business, even things I'm really, really excited about, I don't want to pursue that, you know, and so the first thing, and what I would say is just the main obstacle is. our bodies, our nervous system being unavailable for pleasure, being in a state of, you know, whether it's fight, flight or freeze, or it is, you know, some level of just dysregulation, the tension that is created, you know, kind of think about it like a flower, right? You know, and a flower and like a bud. But and it's all closed up, it's not open to receive. And so, you know, if we want that little like honeybee to come and give us it's, you know, sweet little nectar, whatever is giving us right, then we have to be able to like willing to open and you can actually feel your body so closed up. It's not available to open up to receive. It's not available to be able to take in the good and so many women we struggle receiving so many different levels, but that first obstacle and the main obstacle of where it comes back to is like, I noticed that I'm not available for pleasure in my body right now. I noticed that somehow I'm pushing it away, that I'm feeling guarded, that I'm feeling closed off, that I'm feeling small, all of these like, you know, physical symptoms that are letting you know, that's when we get to start investigating the other. obstacles. Like what is creating this in my body? Is it just because I had a really long day? Is it because pleasure doesn't really feel for me? Is it because I'm still feeling some shame around my body? Is it because I don't feel comfortable in my body? You know, is it because I feel like I didn't get everything done and I can't actually give myself a chance to relax and open to receiving because I didn't get everything done on my to do list. You know, there's there's so many things once we start investigating and being curious, but that 1st obstacle. Sorry, that first obstacle is always going to be able to become, uh, you know, in your window of awareness when you start noticing that your body is, is not available for it. I love that because I think You know, we, I'm not, I'm not going to speak for anyone else. I think of sex. I used to think of sex as like having like the sun, the moon and the stars kind of had to align. We had to have, you know, both of us ready wanting at the same time. But I think just the practice of checking in, like, am I, regardless of whether or not anything's going to happen with a partner, like, where is my body? In terms of openness or closeness to just pleasure in general, not even just not even sexual pleasure. But the thing you said that I was like, Oh, that's so good is I didn't get everything done on on my list. And I do think that for me, that one, you know, kind of pinged my radar because I, I do think there's a connection between pleasure as a reward. Like you got everything done. You good girl. Now you, now you can relax. Now you can be open. Now you can, um, receive whatever it is, whether it's a TV show, right? Sitting down to just watch something or, um, play a game that I like to play. I really think that the, that connection strong in my brain of like pleasure as reward and you don't get it. If you didn't get your shit done. Absolutely. And, you know, as you were saying that, I think, you know, one of the other things is I'm talking a lot here about stuff that we can become conscious of, right? Noticing these things that we can start to bring our awareness to and be conscious of. But the fact of the matter too, is that, um, when you were saying like awaken, most of us are just not awake most of our day. In general, right? We're not awake to the fact that we are operating on default mode. We're on this like autopilot sort of routine that is dependent on those. I like to call them mental habitual events, right? These habitual events that have like created such, um, so little resistance that this is just how our body goes through the motions and we're not even checking in. Like, it's not even like a consensual thing that you have decided you're going to do because we are so programmed and so, you know, in habit that it becomes habit of body. It becomes habit of the mind. And we're not awake to the fact that there actually is body. pleasure in any given moment if we were to wake up and turn our attention towards it. And so when I say these things, you know, a lot of these other obstacles are, you know, bringing conscious awareness. But the main obstacle I see for most women is that we are not awake, we aren't like, oh, you know, living into this, like, am I choosing this? Is this intentional? Do I want to be doing this? I mean, think about it. Like, I mean, the other day I was driving, and all of a sudden, I went the wrong way. I was like, holy shit, like, I'm not even going to this place. But it was just so automatic. And I think we can all relate to that, right? Where you're, you're not even consciously thinking about where you're going. And all of a sudden, you're where You have always been going and you didn't. even ask yourself, do I want to go there? Nor were you're paying attention to the path. And so part of really pursuing pleasure is allowing ourselves to like, wake up to like these default modes, these habitual mental events that are keeping everything the same. And giving ourselves a chance to like check in and wake up multiple times so that we can intentionally choose pleasure. We can intentionally choose connection. We can intentionally choose like safety in our nervous system so that we can get into these places where we feel vulnerable, which is where the true like deep intimacy actually happens. And so more than anything, it's like That that tends to be the main obstacle and I don't want this to be a judgy or blamey thing Like this is how we're wired. We are supposed to go into default mode. We are supposed to go on to autopilot It saves our energy, you know, it's it's less effort for our brain. It's like takes less calories Like there's all these things that your body is wired to conserve energy. So it wants to To find patterns. It wants to learn from memory. It wants you to stay the same and stay the same person with the same experiences so that it doesn't waste any energy. That's so important to name that. Um, and to, to To say to everyone listening, if you are not awake to habits, you know, if you like my mom, we would get in the car and if she wasn't thinking we would end up in the church parking lot, right? Yeah. No matter where else we were going. And so that is a, that's a normal human function that we have been given to, um, conserve energy, brain space, calories, everything you said. And that is not your fault. Yeah. Yeah. It is not, is it, it is not our fault that we have been taught that good girls prioritize everybody else and getting everything done for everybody else. That we are taught to associate our value with what we produce and that disconnects us from our body because we're just have to overwork and over deliver and, and over produce all the time to feel valuable. That's not, that's not your fault. Yeah. This conversation is meant to show you an opportunity. That you have to through the lens of pleasure, find a deeper connection to yourself, which is all I want for anybody and whatever they decide to do with that deeper connection, whether it's more sex or not more sex. That's, that's not the point of this. It's, it's the deeper connection. And. I love that you said that. Becoming aware of just the habituated ways that your body just goes into autopilot, getting things done. That's the first part of it. And the flip side is I think that I have become more aware as I have noticed all the habits I have that take me away from pleasure. Yeah. I've noticed there's pleasure everywhere. There's pleasure in Yes. Delicious blueberries that are like so crunchy, but so sweet. There is pleasure in like holding my partner's hand. There is pleasure in getting a back scratch or a back rub. There is, there's just, there's pleasure to be had everywhere that I, I was not awake to in the same way that I think you're talking about, like not being awake of just the habits our brain has. Yeah. Yeah. And when you get really, um, you know, I, I love that you're pointing all of that out, right? Because that's it. And when you start to pursue it, you do start to notice the obstacles, but you also start to notice, you know, where it's happening because when you, when you set your intention, when you get really clear about where you're wanting to go, like living as a giving yourself an opportunity to like, Be curious, what does this even look like? You know, I call it like the turned on woman. I have a couple of practices. I work with my clients, like really helping them visualize it, to feel it in their body, to feel the shape, how, what kind of choices, what kind of decisions, what would they be doing? Right. And when you get so clear, the beautiful part. Again, science, we're going to get a little nerdy here, right? As we're, we're, we're stimulating, like the reticular activation system, you know, and that's that part of those neural cells in our brainstem that filter information that's important to us. So when you make this decision, when you make it really powerfully, when you make this like intention, now your filtration system is going prefrontal cortex, where we have that conscious awareness, the things that line up. With what you want, like, I do want pleasure here. Here's some opportunities that you couldn't see before. Oh, I do want pleasure. And here's the things that are keeping me from it. Right. So there's so much like benefit of just like, this is what I want. I'm going to keep paying attention so that we can start to even, you know, switch our, you know, reticular activation system. So that. Those opportunities become more present and the deeper you get into work, you know, um, I might have shared this on the first podcast. I think I did, you know, so much of where I got into this work was through my pain, was through my physical pain when I was bedridden for those couple of and learning how to find Pleasure alongside of pain, you know, in a body that hurts so bad. And I think oftentimes we only associate pleasure with like these really good moments in our life. Like you said, like holding your husband's hand or eating a juicy blueberry. And what I want to encourage all of you is also to understand that pleasure by definition is. Finding something that is pleasing to us in the senses, right? Something that we can kind of turn towards that, uh, whether it's enjoyment or satisfaction or delight, but like, there, there's an ease, like, this is good. And. Finding that also alongside the challenges, finding that in a moment where things are really hard can be one of the most healing things that you can do when you can land in your body to be able to process some of the process something that is really challenging or sticky or difficult for you right alongside a place in your body that feels good. You're going to be able to, to transform that, to move through that, to heal at such a deeper level, because now not only are you processing something, but you've created such trust and safety in your body that we can even go through the hard, With a sense of like, I got you. It's like having a sore throat and then putting honey on it. Like it's, it's going to be okay. Like, we're going to get through this. This is challenging and let me make it a little easier for you. Like, let me give a little bit of sweetness to this situation as you move through it. It's so beautiful. And I love that definition of pleasure. Just finding something that is delightful, that is beautiful, that is healing, that's enjoyable to the senses. And the juxtaposition of that with the pain that so many of us feel, whether it's actual physical bodily pain, whether it's the being in the process of being able to be in our bodies safely. Um, and, and then just like. Doing things that are, that are mindless and annoying and overwhelming and having both that experience alongside of pleasure, I think, is something beautiful to consider when you talk about landing in your body. Tell me more about what you mean by that, because you said several phrases that I, that I think we're beginning to have like a more collective societal definition of, but you said, you know, landing in your body, creating safe and trust, safety and trust in your body. Thank you. Tell me more about that. Yeah. I mean, I think that it is evolved for myself too over the years. Um, and where it started from was just what I like to call my observer tower, right? Like before we could even land in our body, like starting to just like climb up the ladder, like, I, I picture something very imaginative and dramatic because that's just how my, my mind works the best. But like, I imagine like watching like all of this stuff up in Rapunzel's tower. So I'm just like up there, you know, in my tower watching what's going on in my mind, like watching all of these things happening in my mind. Because usually. You know, day to day, we are just our thoughts. We are in our thoughts. We are being our thoughts. We aren't even paying attention that there are thoughts happening in our brain. We're just, we just are them, you know? So that first step is like really just a noticing. that thinking, spinning mind, you know, noticing all the characters or what I also like to visualize is like all of the parades, like the rodeo Queens and the band happening and the clowns juggling, right? Like there's a whole circus, there's a whole parade going on and I'm watching it, you know? So even when we just start like with that, when you start to notice that your brain is so active and usually we're so immersed, In like, we are the rodeo queen. We are like the marching band. We are part of the parade. And we become the observer. Then we realize we can go other places. We realize we can, we can leave the street where the parade is and there's other things. things that we can pay attention to. There's other happenings going on in the city. Let's go take a look. So when I say land in your body, it's like, oftentimes it's like when you first notice, like, where is my attention right now? And most of the time, our attention is like just in our brain and then we can observe and watch our brain and landing in your body is paying attention to what's going on in your body. But then you become, go from just observing what's happening to your body to being in your body, to like, to being immersed in the experiences. So almost the opposite of what I just explained with the brain, where the brain is going You know, when we're observing our thoughts, we're going from being our thoughts to watching our thoughts with the body. We can then take that observer, you know, skill that we've learned watching the body and then just being it becoming part of it, being immersed in the sensations of it. So. landing in your body is really that it's noticing what's going on and then giving yourself permission to surrender also to what's going on. But when we have these different levels that we can look at it, there's so much that we can do to assist our body. Like, I'm Oh my gosh, like I can listen to it. Like I noticed that you're really anxious right now. Like, what do you need? How can I take care of you? Do you feel this hand I'm putting on the heart? Like this is for you. And then as the body letting that, that touch be received, letting that deep breath be really felt and taken in, like letting that like calm tone that you're speaking to your body, be a way that it becomes a refuge that now you can immerse yourself in it. I think that's such an important thing that you just said, because what's coming to mind and, and specifically what you said about, we are so used to being the watchers of our bodies. Like, that is what good girl programming is. You have to watch what your body looks like and you have to watch how other people experience your body. Yeah. Do they think I'm fat? Do they think I'm pretty? Do they like my clothes? Is this the right way to do this? The wrong way to do this? We're so just, we're so immersed in that kind of split duality and it gets named. I learned about it, um, first in, um, a book more than a body about, and it, uh, the authors of that book, which I can't remember right now. Um, but I will link in the show notes. They described like that split experience of like, I'm not, I'm not in my body. I'm watching other people watch my body and, and I'm policing my body, but that's completely different. Then allowing yourself to feel the sensations of your own body, allowing yourself to feel how your body has information for you, whether it's, it's a clenching in your chest or a nausea in your stomach or a hollowness in response to the things that are going on around you and how that information. Is so valuable about about how your body is reacting to the stimulus and it's I think that is I feel like I am still very much in that journey and a lot of women I people socialize as women would say that as well because all our programming has been to watch how other people experience our body and not how we experience it. Yes, exactly. And, and there's like, even as you continue this work, right, there's different, there's that different level of like, like noticing sensation, but then how am I relating to it to, you know, like, there's a relationship that we don't actually have with our body. Other than rejecting it, putting it down, doing all these things. But when you start to get into communication with your body, when you start to feel like you said, these, these sensations, these tightening, things, clenching, all of that, like we get to be, uh, best friends with it. But then also there's a moment where you just have this recognition, like. Like this is me, I am me and you are, you know, like we are one, you know, so there's just gets to be this like deep intimacy and union to, you know, so I think it's so, so helpful and so powerful if we look at it separately at the beginning, like, Like when we start to understand that the words that we say are the way that we are working with it, like witnessing what that's doing to our body, you know, the way that I like to, uh, you know, one of the things that I talk a lot about with my clients, I was like, like, look at how your body is feeling like beaten and bruised because of the way that you've been talking about it. Right, the way that your internal like, like, like, what is that feel like to have someone say that to you and really dropping them then into the experience of the body to feel what it's like to receive the self criticism to receive like these kind of like worries and ideas so that they can feel what that feels like as the body. to like be put down to be picked and prodded at to not ever be enough to be, you know, not listened to when it's like clearly a no, but you are afraid to say that no to your partner, you know, like all of these things, like, what does that feel like as the body to go through that? And I think that So much of when we are disconnected, it's like what you're saying, we're observing it from the outside, but we're also just very disconnected from our body for a variety of reasons. But, you know, really what I see is like, we're disconnected because it's a, it's a safety mechanism. It's been a survival thing. You know, there is. So much that shows, you know, like whether it's big T trauma or a little T trauma that our brain is trying to protect us. And for those of us socialized as women, there was a lot of stuff being flown at us, whether you have experience with, you know, big T trauma, like sexual assault or anything like that, there are like the little comments that are said that the shame spirals, the slut shame, you know, like all of these things that make it feel really unsafe. safe. And when we're not taught the skill of how to be in our bodies to create that safety, it makes sense. It is so frickin uncomfortable to go through that as a young girl, as a young woman, as a woman in general, in our society, of course, you want to hang out in your head more. So I think that is a really Important thing for us to know, like, again, it's not your fault that we're disconnected. And what we're really doing now is we're using pleasure as a tool to make the transition back to your body a little smoother. We want to get a little spicy. We're using pleasure as your, your lubrication to like really have your presence penetrate into your body so that your nervous system is just not like floor. Like, what are you doing? Yeah. So I'm thinking about, you know, someone listening to this, wanting a higher degree of participation and creation of pleasure in their life. They do the work to become. Awake, right awake to their habits awake to the autopilot places in their life. Um, they understand more about what it's like to, to be in a body that they have loving respectful thoughts about. They're able to create some of that safety and trust with themselves. Yeah, such important work. And then you've got to, like, put into words what you want with someone. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, it starts with you, number one, right? Like, we learn what we want when we're really focused on ourselves. Most of us are not focused on ourselves a lot of the time, so like give yourself permission to like find out but I also think this question like what do you want is so huge and it's so vague and it's so challenging, especially if you haven't spent a lot of time like finding out, you know, it's like if I'm in a place where I'm hangry. And my husband asks what I want to eat, like back the F off, like, I don't know, leave me alone. And then I get more upset and then more mad and I should know and he's like, well, what do you know? But then when I have choices. Then I can move forward. So, so the other thing that I want to say about this is stop beating yourself up because you don't know what you want. That's so huge. Most of us don't even know what's possible. Most of us haven't even been able to explore. We don't even know how to explore. Okay. So starting with like options is so helpful. Thai food or Italian. Well, I guess Italian. Well, do you want pizza? No, I don't want pizza. Okay, you know, so like we get more specific as we start doing this and I use the example of like hangry because your nervous system is going to be a little awkward. activated when you ask yourself this question that has never been safe to answer. When you're asked a question that you have never asked yourself again, your body is going to be like, I should know what I want. What's the matter with me? What do I want? Now I'm on the spot. They're expecting a certain answer. So let's just assume you're going to be like hangry, trying to figure out what you want to eat. Okay. So when we are in an activated state, it's a lot harder to come up. with creative ideas, right? We have no access to our creativity. We also don't have access to our decision making. So give yourself a break, make it easy, start making a list, start thinking of things that are out there. And then we can start giving ourselves options because otherwise you're going to shut down and then it's going to be one more obstacle and you're not going to continue. And it's so funny because I think The, the quote unquote self help world can make this worse because now we're supposed to be women who are awake and in our bodies and who know what we want all the time and and how to get it. And that just kicks you in the ass in a different way than. Then when you are quote, unquote, asleep and you don't know what you want. So I love that you said that and that giving yourself options and choices and narrowing it down is so, is so helpful. It's so helpful. And it's just like the other thing is like a little bit of patience with it because like you said, the self growth word, like taking even out of sexuality, the way that we approach our desire. is we expect it to come on command. It's like we ordered what I, what I want order. We put that into Amazon. What do you mean? There's not next day delivery. Why isn't it here yet? Right. And we have to have patience of like, Your true wants and desires are going to help reveal themselves, but sometimes also when you just put yourself on the spot and like, what do I want? What do I want? What do I want? What you're also doing to like your nervous system and what's available to you. You're putting this pressure situation on it. The tone that you use of what I want, the way that we approach it, the way that we think that that's just going to come out, we're trying to use our analytical mind. And that is not where creativity happens. That is not where like those desirous ideas bubble up. So it's like, yes, know what you want. And then. Go sit on your cushion. Well, that's what I do. I have my cushion right here, right? Or go have an orgasm, go do whatever it takes to get your brain into a different state where those neurochemicals conducive to creative thinking are happening. So your desires reveal themselves. And this is, this is again, like outside of sexuality, right? But like we asked what we want, what's the next move? thing in my business. What's the next thing that I should do with parenting or blah, blah, blah. We try so hard. We're like squeezing. It's like squeezing and creating all this pressure, hoping an orgasm is going to happen. You don't get it. The, the, the climax isn't there. So it's like, we have to remember too, when we're asking this question, what do I want? Being like, I'm looking forward to this being revealed. And then you go to work creating the brain and body state that's conducive. to creative thinking, to thinking outside of the box so you can even see what's available. So on the one hand, my brain wants to make, I, I, I think this is, Fascinating to watch my brain, try to like put this into steps. Like first you do this, then you do this, then you create this, you know, brain body state that's conducive to creative experience. And I think what you're trying to say is that while yes, there are some obstacles that we might be able to make a list of, you know, the seven most common obstacles to pleasure. It's really a, such a personal self exploration. Yeah, that yes, can hit some of the common things for women, you know, not being awake to their habits. Their body is close to pleasure. We have all these ideas about when we deserve pleasure when we don't, we don't know how to really just be in our bodies and experience them as safe, loving places. Um, we don't often know how to really create this creative, playful, imaginative, pleasurable space. No one ever taught us how to do that, gave us permission to do it, encouraged us, you know, to do it. Um, I just wanted to name that. It's like, I think my brain still wants like a recipe, steps one, one through, you know, 10, whatever. But I think what you're getting at is more of like concentric circles that we, or, you know, and this isn't, you can hear, you can hear my brain trying to like make sense of this real time that it's more about. Visiting some different places of awareness and seeing what is there for me? Is that tell me what you think of that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I do there, there is these different places, right? You know, just like with anything, like, let's say that you wanted to get your body really fit. Well, you're going to take a look at, you know, your stress levels because cortisol is kind of going to, you know, keep you from being really fit. So you're going to take a look at where you're stressed. If you, you want to make sure that you're eating the right food, you're getting the right, you know, uh, you know, support and care that you're exercising, right? So there's these different areas and there's no different when you're becoming more pleasured. So I think it is important. I'm glad that you. Pause here and kind of looked at it because on the one side, it's like pursuing sensual pleasure, you know, is really a part of what I was talking about. It's like pursuing sensual pleasure to what is available to you right now, you know, waking up to the scent and the taste and the heat and the warmth of like the sun. your tea in the morning, you know, feeling your partner's hand, like being curious and so immersed in like that kiss and letting it last for like six seconds to like really get that oxytocin boost. You know, there are like going for a hike and enjoying like nature, you know, do dancing, like doing all of these things that are going to help create the states that I was talking about. These are like states of like sensual awareness. It's your senses is what I mean by sensual awareness. They're delightful. This feels good. I'm receiving this. This is for me. Like there's that, right? More of that is what we're really aiming for, but you can just start there. Then on the other side, like how we really optimize more than just doing that is starting to pay attention to also. Why wouldn't I do this? Why am I limiting it to only my cup of coffee instead of, you know, like my partner's like hands all over me? I'm okay receiving here. I'm okay receiving the sunshine and the heat and the beauty on my face. I'm, I'm okay with receiving the smell that the roses are giving me right now. I'm okay receiving like the warmth and like this love and like cuddling from my kids every morning. I'm not available to let my partner go down on me and just lay back and like, see what happens, right? So we see these different levels of like, where am I okay? Where am I open to receiving pleasure? And where am I still cut off? Because the more that we expand our capacity for pleasure, the more that we're going to be able to, to experience it. So yes, it's finding those moments right now that are accessible to me. I can do this in the shower. I can feel it with my coffee. I can feel it at a kiss. And let's also get curious. Like what are some of the beliefs I notice? Like beliefs about my body are keeping me from feeling comfortable, like being free and naked with the lights on. Okay, now I know. So then that becomes like this, this other, this other area, and then going back to what you said about like, what do I want? You know, it's like, these get to be this combination of coming up with a list, you know, again, it's all about expanding my possibility of pleasure, but, you know, This is kind of what I'm looking for. Maybe let's go ahead and try this. Just picking and choosing and being curious, you know, being willing to be awkward, you know, creating safety and having your own back that if it doesn't go the way that you want, you're still going to try something different and love yourself and laugh with your partner, you know? So there are kind of like these different buckets that we find ourselves. But all aimed at the expanding the capacity for pleasure, the pursuit of pleasure and the practice of pleasure. I love that. And I almost feel like we could just end right there, but I, I want to name one other piece because I think it's, um, I think it's common and it's, it's that the vote part of. Where I am in this journey of expanding my capacity for pleasure is getting comfortable, not, not only just saying what I want, you know, a lot of the good girl programming is about us being simultaneously, like, Pure and virginal and, you know, but also sexually appealing, right? And being, uh, mothering and nurturing and also sexy. It's just such a mindfuck when you kind of really name a lot of the, the ways that women are programmed to be two opposite things at the same time and how that, that shows up. Where I have found a lot of, um, room for expansion is when I talk about, you know, what I want with my husband, I feel like I'm exposing like the soft underbelly of And, and I actually trust him fully to respond. Well, to it, what I find myself, um, struggling with is that it's almost like once I name it, or once I bring that pleasure into my life, once I create the space for it. I could lose it. It could be taken away from me. Um, I could lose him. Yeah. And I, it's so interesting. I am getting emotional because I think when you are a woman who has gone through a lot of life, Really armored up disconnected disassociated because that was the way that you had to do it, either because of trauma or because of conditioning. I think there's a lot of women who can really identify with this. Feeling of like, I just get up every morning. I put on a bunch of armor. I just get through the day the best I can. I try to take care of the people that I love and that I'm responsible for. I try to do a good job and show up and be a good wife, mother, sister, friend, employee. And once I make space for me, I could lose it. Yeah, and I'm so glad that you you spoken to this because I think that a lot of us have that that fear and you know, it goes back to that old adage of like, would you rather have loved and lost than never have loved at all. And I consistently like think about that because like this. This way that we dedicate to this path is a courageous one because when you begin to open up yourself to, you know, a, a, a bigger world, um, you know, more fully expressed and like literally loads and loads more joy, satisfaction, connection, pleasure than most of us ever thought was possible. When you begin to do that, it is a riskier path, you know, because the, the fall from that or the possibility of the fall from that is greater, right? The deeper you, the deep, the more vulnerability that you create to truly love, to truly open up, to get more and more honest, the stakes naturally become higher. And I think so many of us, you know, when we be, for those of us that are mothers, when we became mothers, we went through a huge transition where we really felt that because that love and that connection, like with your children. And then this idea of. possibly losing them, right? You know, so, so there is that risk, you know, I'm not going to say that there's not. The thing that I think is so important to remember is because you're opening up to this, because you're creating the safety, right? Like our ability to really experience pleasure is directly related to the safety in our nervous system that we create in order to receive. We, the more safety we create in our nervous system, the more we're able to receive, right? So we are actually developing the skill as we're opening up to expanding our capacity for more pleasure to be able to handle it if it, something happened, if we lost that. So I think that's the one thing that we forget about is we're trying to make this decision of like, this could crush me, this could ruin me from a place. where you haven't experienced the resilience as much, where we haven't experienced like the safety in our nervous system. As you pursue, as you open up, as you give yourself permission for more pleasure, you are directly like creating the foundation in your nervous system and in your mind that will be able to support you. through challenges, through disappointment, through heartbreak, should that come. And that's such a place, a good place for me to help myself land back to is like, yeah, this is scary. And I am opening up and I'm going to see a whole new world because I'm courageous enough to open up to it. And And because I am opening up to that, I am automatically supporting myself should anything happen more than I would ever be supported if I just went through the rest of my life guarded. Isn't that just the paradox, right? The irony in all of this is that. I mean, that's exactly it. The process of expansion creates not just the results, the pleasure, the new world, the amazing experiences, whatever those are, but it creates simultaneously the structure to support the loss of it potentially, because that's one of the things, you know, and I didn't necessarily think we'd be talking about this in our podcast, but. The ability to grieve and to trust that if I lose this, I will grieve it. Yeah. And I will take very good care of myself. I will feel anything that needs to be felt. Yeah. Is You, you can't have that trust with yourself to, to grieve and to feel feelings. If you don't trust yourself to go after the beauty and the pleasure and the new experience, there are two sides of the same coin. And that's just such the paradox that we have to, that, that, that we get, we have the opportunity to be able to hold. Exactly. And, and you know how we started this conversation when you talked about, like, why is this like the, the pinnacle of the connection, self connection that we can have with ourselves? This is it. Yeah. This is why, right? Because it's the courage to go forward, but it's also the trust that by you going forward, by you allowing that blossom to open up, you are creating the skillset to be able to handle Of the opposite side of the pleasure and the love, which could be the heartbreak and the grief and everything else. Like, you actually are creating, you know, that that skill set that foundation, the internal resources to not just expand you into more pleasure. But also to be able to support you in grief and challenges in disappointment. And so that's why it becomes like this deepest level of intimacy and trust with yourself, because it really, you know, it's, it's courageous and it's right there. And it's like, let, like letting the different parts of your guard disintegrate along and knowing that no matter how this ends up, I'm going to be okay. Yeah, that's it. That's the conversation I wanted to have with you. And I'm just so grateful, um, that you are the kind of person who I can have this conversation with and that, um, you add so much, I think to this journey for me, and I hope to the people who've listened, because I think. If you're listening to this podcast, right? If you're here, it's because you want something more and the, the pathway of, of pleasure is so rich. And I have found exactly what you said that as I have simultaneously taken, given myself the opportunity and been courageous enough to say what I want, it simultaneously creates. the support for the loss of that thing, because what we do know is that there will be lost. There will be grief that things that we love, we will lose that things will not turn out the way we want every time. And, and I think that stops a lot of us, the fear of that happening. Yeah. And I just love this idea of, knowing that the creation of what we want supports me to the eventual experience of, of loss, which is part of this life. And loss is going to happen, whether or not you open up to the expansion, right? So it's like you might as well prepare yourself by having More satisfaction, more joy, more pleasure to create that foundation so you can handle it to create the kind of resources that is going to make the inevitable easier to navigate. Absolutely. Is there anything that you wanted to touch on or say that we didn't already hit? I think it's been just an incredible conversation. I'm so grateful. I mean, I feel like we could have a series of like six of these because there's so much to say, you know, but, you know, I think the main thing I would just to conclude with us is number one, helping yourself get on board. right? You know, again, because the courage is required, because the fear is going to come up, because the resistance is going to come up, like help immerse yourself in why this is even a worthy path to start going down to begin with. you know, really give yourself so many different ways. This is why I focus so much on the science because I love to find all of the different ways that this is going to improve my well being, my brain, my relationship, you know, generations to come. Like, get all of the ways, you know, so that that's number one to learn how to really drop into your body that it's not your fault that you're not to help yourself wake up. But from this loving place of like, of course, of course, I haven't been awake to this before. And now I get to look at this opportunity that I have, and, you know, really just Just allowing yourself to continuously pay attention to what is the level of safety that I need in my nervous system to take this next step towards pleasure. And how am I going to do that? Is that in my brain that I need to like work through some thoughts is that, you know, just touching in with my body, but like really allowing yourself to ask yourself, knowing that the level of safety that you're able to create in your nervous system is going to. Help you open up to receiving more. And I love just to revisit one thing you said that I, I found fascinating is like, if you are listening to this and asking yourself, okay, like what, what can I start with? I think a really helpful thing that you said is, you know, what I can, I can receive the warmth of the sun on my face and my body. I can receive touch in this way. What is in the way of receiving the warmth of. My lover partner, whoever's body on my body in this different wind on your yes, your own hand on your own body. Yes. What is in the way of that? What programming or what have I been taught to believe about that and getting really curious about that? Because you might have. Reasons that you like for not going in a particular direction of pleasure totally fine because it is 100 percent up to you and what is pleasurable to you, but I think it's so powerful to know, like, you know what, I don't want to pursue that for these reasons and I know them and I like them. But over here, this is really interesting. Why can I accept this particular type of pleasurable experience, but I can't accept this. Do I want it? Why would I want it? And what's in the way of it? Yeah. Yeah. And could there be a future of possibility where I do, you know, not just like, maybe I'm not pursuing it right now, but you know, what would, what would need to be required in order for me to pursue this, you know, and, and really giving yourself kind of those next levels of challenges. If people want to learn more about The specific work that you do with this, where should they go? We're going to put all this in the show notes, but I want to hear you say it in case people want to hear it. So, uh, on IG, I'm the practice of pleasure. Uh, you can also go to my podcast where I go into a lot of detail about so many of these things it's called. It's my pleasure. And then also I have actually, you know, when we talk about starting, like turning towards, I have a guide guide called the savory starter guide. So you can go to Danielle savory. com slash save savory S A V O R Y dash starter. And that is like a, just a free ebook for you to be able to, with. How adding extra time without adding extra things, how you can start turning towards pleasure every single morning to really prime your day for more pleasure. I would love to have the link for that guide in the show notes so that people can go find that. So I'll make sure that we, that we get that from you, Danielle, you are, um, Such a wealth of information. And what I love is I just always feel so comfortable with you. I mean, we met several years ago. Yeah. I was, um, newly out of Mormon land and I felt almost embarrassed about some of the questions that I had or some of the reflections or the thoughts that I had. And you just instantly, um, put me at ease in such a beautiful way. And I have felt that with you ever since. And I'm just really grateful for that. Oh, thank you. I receive every single word of that. I appreciate that so much. And thank you for this conversation. Um, I feel like it's so important.