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The Ex-Good Girl Podcast
Welcome to the Ex Good Girl Podcast! I’m Sara Bybee Fisk, the Stop People Pleasing Coach. If you feel exhausted from constant people pleasing and perfectionism, and you are ready to stop but you don’t know how, this podcast is for YOU! I will help you learn to stop making other people comfortable at your own expense. I can show you a roadmap you can use to train yourself to stop abandoning your own desires and let go of the fear of what others will think. If you are ready to stop pretending everything is fine, get out of the cycle of doubt, guilt, and resentment AND step into a life of power and freedom, I can help!
The Ex-Good Girl Podcast
Episode 76 - Unconventional Choices: Childfree By Choice with Amber Taylor, Pauline Yan, Melissa G Wirt, and Dr. Susie Castellanos Hansley
I’m thrilled to kick off my “Unconventional Choices” series with an incredible lineup of guests and fellow coaches—Amber Taylor, Pauline Yan, Melissa G. Wirt, and Dr. Susie Castellanos Hansley—all of whom have chosen to remain child-free. Together, we challenge societal norms and our “good-girl” programming as we discuss the pressures of motherhood and womanhood while celebrating the empowerment that comes from intentional choices. This conversation is for everyone interested in the diversity of women’s experiences and embracing our unique journeys without shame or judgment. I can’t wait for you to listen.
Amber Taylor (She/Her), also known as the Pleasure Priority Coach, uses her skills to help Black Millenials navigate the gap between the peace and fulfillment they thought they’d feel and what they actually feel despite their achievements. Amber helps her clients curate fulfilling relationships and to never settle for less.
Website: https://www.ambertaylorcoaching.com/
Pauline Yan, CFA, CAIA (She/Her) is a financial educator and coach. After 16 successful years at a financial firm, she now helps women and first-time investors navigate the complex landscape of the stock market to make sound investments.
Website: https://www.sundaybrunchcafe.com
Melissa G Wirt (She/Her) is a dual-certified life coach who helps people in midlife and beyond get unstuck and feel better about their careers and relationships. With compassion and understanding, she helps clients take doable steps to create results they didn’t think possible.
Website: www.melissagwirt.com
Dr. Susie Castellanos Hansley (She/Her) is the Stress LESS Coach. A former academic and Master Certified Life Coach, she helps smart, high achievers ditch the stressed version of themselves, create work-life balance, and live joyful lives without giving up on their career goals.
Website: https://www.lifecoachsusie.com,
Find Sara here:
https://sarafisk.coach
https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/
https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/
https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333
https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach
What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!
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You are listening to the ex good girl podcast, episode 76, I am so excited about this episode. I woke up, um, this morning. I don't usually record podcasts at 7am my time, but because I really wanted to get this group of women together and it was a time that we could meet, here we are and. I'm so grateful to each of you to giving some time to record this episode. Let's just go through and introduce each of you. And then I will introduce our topic, Amber. Let's start with you. Hey everybody. My name is Amber Taylor and I am the pleasure priority coach. I help black millennials have amazing relationships so they never have to settle again. Awesome. Pauline. I'm Pauline Yan. I am a financial educator. So I teach women how to invest. In the stock market, so that is, also an, kind of an ex good girl topic. Yes. Love it. Melissa. Hi, I'm Melissa wort and I have Melissa G work coaching and, uh, I'm the feel better coach for professionals who want their life to feel as good on the inside as it looks on the outside. That's great. Thanks, Melissa. Susie. Hey, hello, my name is Susie Cassiano Tansley and I am the stress less coach. I help smart high achievers achieve more success with less stress and that means helping them deal with, you know, issues like anxiety, fear, overstressing, uh, procrastination and imposter syndrome. So that's who I am. Thank you. It's fantastic. You might be asking yourself. Are we interviewing a bunch of coaches this morning? The answer is yes, because they're not just coaches. They are people who have made what I would describe as an, a very interesting alternate decision. When you consider the way that humans who are raised to be women, who are programmed with all of that good girl programming are, are taught to live. And. I found all of them in an amazing group of coaches to which I belong online. And the choice that they made was to not have children. Now, you might be hearing the smile in my voice and it's because I have five children. And I can honestly tell you the decision to not have a child, like never even crossed my mind. And so What I hope to do in this conversation is just open up the kind of the behind the scenes of how this decision is made, because I just want all decisions to be normal. I just want any decision that anybody wants to make for themselves and about their life, their time, their body, their energy, their resources. I want them to be able to feel good about it. So that was kind of behind the desire that I had for this podcast. And so my first question and Pauline, we'll start with you. What was behind your decision to not have children? So I always thought I was going to have children up until probably 15, 16. And then I think somebody had mentioned it was not a given and like that. Kind of shook my world. I like that whole fundamental thought. Like I had a choice just came into my mind and like it blew my mind. And then from there, you know, it was kind of an open like I could have Children or I couldn't and and I realized both were legitimate. And then as I, as I, you know, grew into womanhood and became an adult in, in my late twenties and in my thirties, there was a lot of societal pressure, but, I never met the right person to, have a child with, you know, I decided kind of at that point. The 16 17 year old level that I wasn't going to have, I wasn't going to be a single mom inside of a marriage. And so I decided that I was going to have, if I was going to have children, it would be a true partner. And I never met that person until just like two months before I turned 40. Not that that was too late, but by that time, I was comfortable not having children. And, I think some other, people might realize that because I had a lot of trauma in my past, it turned out to be one of the best decisions I've ever made. For me as well. That's so amazing that you talk about like the moment you actually understood it as a choice. Like, wait a second. There's, there's two parts of this. That's so interesting. Anybody else. What are your thoughts on the decision or your thought process behind your decision? For me, I am an ex good girl to a T and, growing up. I believe that like that nuclear family family structure was the pinnacle of success. So everything you had to do. Checking off those boxes, you know, Good college, get good grades, get a good job, find somebody to love you and settle down and like all that. So I was checking them boxes. I was doing everything right. You know, because that's what I was supposed to do. And then I got to this point where, I was questioning everything because I wasn't happy. And I was honestly in an abusive relationship trying to make it work because that's what you do. You know, this is just a blip in the entire relationship. You got to hold it down. You got to stay strong. You got to be committed. You got to do all this things. And ultimately you're going to get happy. And I started like, catching on was like, y'all keep saying that and it's not coming. Um, and I was just like, okay, like, what's going to make me happy. So that's, Honestly, ultimately, when I found life coaching, but for me, when I started deconstructing the idea of needing to be in a, long term monogamous relationship that lasted forever when I was like, oh, wait, maybe this. Doesn't have to be true. That's when it kind of clicked. Like, oh, also, maybe, like, I don't need to have kids like Pauline was saying, like, I didn't recognize it as an option. I just thought that's just what you do. So then when I decided to leave my ex, get a divorce and all the things I was like, oh, wait, I don't actually need a kid. I don't need this thing to be happy. And then similar to Pauline, when I was rethinking my relationship structure and what I want. And if I even want to get married again, and all that kind of stuff, I was like, I only want to be a parent. If I have a partner. That's all in. I only want to be a parent if I'm, if we're both in this, financially successful place where I mean, I don't want to call a kid a burden, but where it's not like a burden to take care of them. Oh, it's a burden. And it's just like, I was making these choices, oh, like. I can just decide that this isn't right for me and I can decide to change my mind at a later date if I choose. But right now don't want no damn kids and I'm good with that. So that's kind of like how I came to my decision. I hope that answers the question. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think one of the, things that we do to women that is so unkind is we don't talk about how difficult it is to have children and not just the, the cost financially, but mentally, emotionally, physically. And so I can lovingly say that my five children are. Burdens and I love them and I willingly choose them. Right. I think we do a disservice to women when we don't talk about that part of it. And I love that you said that anyone else have something they want to share. This is Susie. My experience was one where I think I had drank the Kool Aid much longer than, Amber and Pauline had, because I wanted kids my whole life. That's what I had been Believing in my heart and it wasn't just a head thing. It was, you know, I really felt it in my body. Like I wanted kids, but what I realized is it was never really a choice. I wanted one. I, what happened was I married my husband. I was his second wife. He was my first and he already had a child from his previous marriage, my stepdaughter that we split custody with. And what happened was. I wanted to have kids. I think we kind of started around 40 and then there was like a certain point where we tried kind of like the first line of, things of, Oh, let's just check to make sure you have, you know, your ovaries are okay. you know, his sperm count is fine. We had only done that. And then he's like, I don't want to have kids after all. I don't want to have any more. It was really hard when we, when I had the first one, the first six years suck. And I don't want to have kids. And in fact, he said, and, you know, I want to be snipped. And I was like, what? You can't make somebody change their mind. You know, he was like, no, we're not doing this. And I was like, dang, I had to sit and really decide. Do I want to leave this person who I love? in order to be able to have a child on my own, or do I stay knowing that we are not going to have a biological child together? And I ultimately decided the latter. And it was, both a choice, but it was, it was a choice, but it also felt painful because I knew I chose that. I chose to stay. I didn't feel like, Oh, I can't leave. But, for a long time, it was really, really painful for me. Because I felt that I had been deprived of something, but about three years ago, you know, Pauline mentioned trauma. I'll just kind of share my experience where how trauma shifted my perception of this choice I made. is that in 2021, um, one of the, one of the brilliant sides of COVID was that we started being able to talk about trauma more publicly. And that's when I realized I had a lot of complex PTSD, intergenerational trauma, like just a lot of trauma that I didn't realize I had because up to that point, I thought trauma was rape or you're in a war. And As I've healed over the last three years and doing my work and helping other people with this, it's when I realized Oh my gosh, the only reason I wanted the kid was so I could feel complete. I felt like I didn't really belong in the family of my husband unless I had a blood bond. But it's crazy because, he divorced his first wife and she's not part of the family. Having a kid is not enough to create connection with people. And then I started to realize, my initial reason for wanting a kid wasn't even a legit one. It came from fear and trauma of not belonging. And then I realized, oh my God, if I'd had a kid, that kid dodged a bullet, because I'm a great person and I was fine with Bonnie, but we only had her like half the time. And. It was just really like, wow, I am so glad we didn't because I don't think it would have triggered so much stuff in me that it would have been a really hard thing for that kid and for me and for my husband. So now I just feel so much better about that choice. And I'm just really happy. Like, there's just so much, understanding the real whys. And realizing like my why for wanting one was based in trauma and that the reason to not have one is like, yeah, because the trauma was such that I don't think I would have been a great mom and I'm just so much happier now. So that's my experience. It's just so fascinating to me that for however all of this is organized and however we all got here, right. Anyone who is biologically in that window of time and has sex can have a child. Mm-Hmm. And there's no like, Hey, do you wanna be a mom? Let's talk about your preparation to take on the responsibility of caring for another individual. There's no like. adult with a clipboard that comes by to ask you the questions of like, are you prepared for this? Do you know what this experience is going to be like? Do you have support? Do you have an understanding of how you want to proceed forward? It just happens, right? It's in so many cases. And I am really glad to hear that at this point you feel settled and peaceful about that choice. I just wondered if there had been some mechanism of education that could have helped you get to that point sooner of really being at peace with and understanding yourself. And it's just so interesting that we don't have that. We just kind of navigate this huge decision all on our own. I will say that nowadays. If I could speak to people who are thinking about this now that we know much more about early childhood trauma and dysregulated nervous system and everything like that. I think we can help people now to really check in like, you know, because it's very hard to be a good parent. If you're dysregulated, then you're passing the trauma onto them. And yes, the book can stop here, but I would say that asking that question should be on the checklist. Right that and it's not that you shouldn't have kids. If you have a dysregulated nervous system, it's that you should know you have a dysregulated nervous system. Here's how it's going to play out with the kid. Here's how you want to work on yourself in order to then be a good parent. But I love that. We now have that. That just wasn't possible for me. When I was going through it. And as someone who has 5 children and I love each of them, I would actually have all of them again. And I would do it all over again. But if someone had helped me understand, like, you have a nervous system and here's what you need you to take care of that. I think it would have been. Just a different experience all the way around, and so I appreciate you speaking to that, Susie. Melissa, is there anything you want to add about the decision making process you went through to not have children? Yeah, I think I'll just tag in here and say, it's fascinating to hear the everyone else speaking because the theme many things are similar to me. And I was surprised by after answered your questions and then what bubbled up was. I might have had a child or even considered it more seriously, but the partnership piece was super important. I knew I wanted to do it in that context, but it's sort of a paradox because even if I had wanted had realized that wanted to do that, there's no guarantee that the partner that you start out with will be there. I guess it goes back to that. Could we ever prep people in any way and help them look into this decision? In a better way now, like, I would want that for people because you really need to be able to say, I want these children for me. I'm going to step up and do it and hopefully I'll have the partner that I want to go. So that was interesting. This little piece I just wanted to add in was that. For me, I didn't have I hear a lot of women talking about their biological clock ticking a strong urge to to have a child. I don't know if it was, I felt selfish with my body and somehow realized there's a physical, cost that you, there's a physical challenge with having children that I wasn't willing to do. And I didn't have a strong enough desire, biologically, nothing felt like that. It was more of the social stuff, which I know we're going to talk about. So it's more of the social stuff that sort of took me in the direction of thinking that it might be something important, but coming to learn that it was not for me. It's just so interesting that each of you, have mentioned the role that a partner played either in convincing you, you know, that this isn't right. Or I don't want to do this without a partner. And one of the things that I keep running into in my reading about this is that not only is the partnership. Piece a part of it, but we also in the United States, we do not have a support network for parents or for mothers that could have stepped in to even, I think, be a compelling argument to have. A child because maybe, your state or the country you live in provides some services. Pauline, where are you based? I'm in Canada, so there is some support. So like maternal leave. Or parental leave. So there is that, but I mean any of the other like childcare or monetary, any of that is, not here as well. So it's not like in some other countries that you hear, that there's a lot of maternal support. So here we just have the leave, which is, nice. And there's, legal support for you to, have leave and then come back to your job and whatnot. But, I'll just want to add, A couple of things. It didn't come up in the questionnaire, but, actually with my partner, we did get pregnant, a couple of years into our relationship. And so again, it was an active choice. what do we want to do? Do we want to proceed? Or do we, you know, want to make other choices? So again, this is, X good girl because I think I'm about to say something that like, it's gonna garner a lot of hate, because I was over 40, it was going to be a challenging pregnancy. And, it just turned out that, we had decided that we weren't going to proceed. I was going to have an abortion. And then, the day before I went into the clinic, I miscarried. And, I think a lot of people I hear in society, when they have a miscarriage, it's a very emotional thing. It's very, traumatizing, but, I secretly felt relieved. Yeah. I think that's a very. Unpopular thing to say, but I'm just going to put it out there. I felt relieved. I went to the clinic and, they just had a procedure for me, to deal with, all of the biological things afterwards. But my partner and I we still don't regret it. And it's just something that, we decided, and I guess, life agreed with us. The reason that I love that you decided to share that is because I don't want decisions like that to be unpopular, right? I want them to just be a decision that I made with the best information available to me about what I want to do with my life and my body. And again, I have five kids. I love kids. I love babies, right? But I want the babies. To be born to, to mothers and fathers and families who want them and can care for them and who can take care of them. And yes, it's hard, right? We don't need to have a big conversation about the ups and downs of parenting because that is well known, but I just want people to feel empowered to choose. And so I'm, I'm really grateful that you would share that with us. Because In your life, what pressures existed that were kind of pointing you in the baby direction? And I'm thinking like from family members or from cultural groups, religious groups, community groups, like certainly patriarchy and the good girl programming that all of us grew up with teaches us that, the best thing that a woman's body is good for is having babies and children, but what pressures existed for each of you and all that, whoever wants to dive in on this one, take the lead. So I'm Asian, and it's a very patriarchal society there. So there was a lot of pressure in that way. I didn't feel a lot of the direct pressure, but what I will say is, when I was 28, 29, 30, 31, 32. So like within that five years span, complete strangers in grocery stores, which, talk to me about having children and not leaving it too late. It was at work in terms of like colleagues like you get married or having children. My friends not so much. But yeah, complete strangers, not even people in my life. I thought that was very, very strange. And then I used to joke that, you know, after 32 or 33, all of that, stranger pressure like evaporated. And it was like, society thought it was too late for me. Um, so I just thought that, you know, that society piece was really interesting. It happens to pregnant women too, you'll have a complete stranger come up to you and want to put their hands on your belly and talk to you it's just so interesting that culturally this idea of children, we feel totally free to inject ourselves into the lives of strangers and make comments about whatever their choices. That's, fascinating. I saw some other head nodding. Were there others of you who, were subjected to the comments of random strangers? Okay. So, I'm black and I am also, a daughter of an immigrant. My mom immigrated from the Caribbean from Trinidad. And I think both of those cultures, there's this. Extra emphasis on excellence, and being the best and, showing other people that you have it all together. And part of that is again, that nuclear family structure. So, not just how you look. For me personally, I was always. Essentially groomed to prepare myself for a man like I remember even as child grade school. You need to have your hair kept so the boys will look at you. You need to be parent like and I was a tomboy. I was messy. I was always jumping in some mud. I got in trouble for that all the time because I needed to present as a lady. All of this was training to then get a man. So then that man would then impregnate. All the way, everything was leading to this. And then, also speaking of, that trauma thread that Susie and Pauline were talking about earlier, That part is ignored, another thing I'm grateful for because I also was able fully dive into my trauma healing experience and be, you know, a puddle on the floor without having to worry about another human life. But, the pressure was. Again, just that expectation, like, you should have kids. When are you going to have kids? When are you going to find somebody? Why aren't you dating anybody? Even in high school, when it's taboo to have a kid, it's like, why aren't you dating anybody? Like, what's going on? Like, what's happening? Like, you should be dating. You should be preparing to have a child. It's always been the message. So then, when I was getting older and actually started dating, it was always. You should get married 1st, but you should have those babies. Like, when are the babies coming? When are the babies coming? When are the babies coming? And, me and my ex dated, 3 years before we got engaged. And, as soon as we got engaged, babies, babies, babies, babies. it was just, this pressure of, this is just what you do next. But I'm again, so grateful because. That was just wasn't the path for me. And I know we'll get into it more later, but I feel like now I'm able to be more community focused. I'm able to step up as an auntie as a God parent as, the friend is the neighbor like yeah, I'll take them kids off your hands. Yeah, we'll go to the zoo. I'm sure I'm going to give them back. But like, I'm able to step in and be more of a support system. Because I have that pressure on myself. Awesome. Amazing. Anyone else want to add some thoughts before we move on? Susie, yeah. So my experience was interesting because I didn't feel pressure from other people. And I don't know if it has to do with age order. I was curious about what Amber was saying. If, maybe you're the only child and so there's so much pressure or the only daughter, but I was the third, I have a older sister and an older brother. And so my sister, she got married, she had kids. My brother, he got her pregnant. Then they got married. Then they had a kid. A little bit out of order. So I never felt external pressure also because in a way I like to say I'm the white sheep of the family. I'm Latina, but I look white and, one of the many traumas has to do with my parentage. Trigger warning. My, mom was raped by her landlord. And so I was born and I look white. I like to joke, I'm the white sheep of the family. Part of that is that I loved school. That was the one place where I found myself celebrated. Cause I had just a very hard upbringing, at home. I was always just different than everybody. I was the first in my family to go to college. And when I went to college, my junior year, I studied abroad in Australia. I was just like out there, right? Compared to the rest of my family. And I've traveled so many places in the world. And, I was just visiting my cousins, this week in Orange County, I came back to California to visit family and reconnect, and it's just so interesting because nobody ever pressures me to have kids, but I think the pressure I felt just had to do with everybody else having kids. Right. So it was more like, of course you're going to have kids. And then, one of my cousin's granddaughter is pregnant, and they're not married. I think in my community, where we come from, a lot of the time people get. Pregnant and they either don't get married or they get married after so, that wasn't the case with my sister, but a lot of my cousins, that's just how it is. So there's kids everywhere. Grandkids great great grandkids. I will say that ever since I've done my work, it doesn't feel like pressure anymore. It's love. It's like, oh, I'm so glad they're doing that. And I'm so glad I'm not. That, that is such a beautiful way to put into words, even how after the fact, you can still come to peace with a decision that didn't go the way you want it to go. Because Susie, it's interesting. I've had to do the same thing with the fact that I had five children because I thought God told me to. Right. It's, coming to peace with a different kind of, now I always say, and I always just want to reiterate, I love each of my kids and I would have them all again, but I did have to grapple with like, this wasn't what I feel like was a choice of my own free will. Right. There was so much pressure on programming. I'm the oldest of six children. Each of my siblings has a minimum of six children. We all joke that I have the most that I won and you win and there's no price. Right. The price is you get five kids, so I really appreciate you talking about, first of all, what happened with your mother and I'm so sorry in the way that that affected her and affected you, but that we all have to come or we all have the opportunity. Let's put it that way to come to peace with even decisions that we made in the past. Was there a time for any of you where you 2nd guest or you doubted or you worried about your choice to not have children for me? No. And I do think I'm the youngest on this call, so I'll be 30 this year. I think that may also play an element that, I still have time to change my mind. Yeah. Anything could happen. I didn't think I'd be who I am today, five years ago. So I'm not going to say never, but at this point in time, no. And, I'm good with my decision. Like I don't feel flat. There are people who are like, you're going to change your mind. You're going to see, you're going to see the light. You're never going to experience a love like this. I hate that saying. Cause I feel like it puts so much pressure on a child to love an adult, a certain kind of way and fill holes. That's not their responsibility to feel. So in response to that, I'm like, good, good. And I. I fill myself with other types of love. I don't need a child to fill a hole for me. And I want to normalize that I love that. There's so much pressure put on children to, like you said, fill those holes or to make a relationship legitimate or to. Tie two people together and to make their bond last longer. And that's really unfair to a child who didn't sign up for that job and can't do that job because that's not their job to perform. So I'm really glad you said that Amber. Melissa, did you want to add something to that? Yeah, I think what surprised me as I was answering your questions was just, there was no, cultural impact, right? Of all the programming that goes into us, like, what you're doing with, X good girl and also reading this, right? Which is take back your brain, Carol on thalls, helping us all see what socialization as female means and how to unwind it. It's so powerful because I think that stuff. It's just normalized by all the people around you who have chosen that or bought into that. We're surrounded by it. We're enculturated into it. So I wanted to check all the boxes. I wanted to get it right. So I could be okay, have kids and dating was super important. I had to get a boy, in my teens. So that was super important. But the only time that I think I realized that there might've been pressure that I didn't realize until I was answering the questions was. My mom was a nurse and her dream job was to deliver babies and be in the labor and delivery department. So I think at some level, I was pressuring myself. She never would have pressured me. It never did to give her grandchildren that kind of pressure was part of the package that, even though I might have wanted to do that, I knew I couldn't do that for her. Cause I didn't. I want to birth children did not want to have children in that way. So that was 1 thing. I wanted to say the 2nd thing. This is kind of circling back, but I just want to say it. I'm in a relationship with a woman. We've been together 33 years and married when it was possible. So we have. Relatives 2 men together, and they just adopted a girl and the level of preparation and answering and work they had to do at some level seemed a little oppressive. But then at another level, back to this conversation we were having here is. It just makes sense. Why wouldn't we help other humans look at, like, who are you? What do you need? How do you take care of your hurt parts? How do you show up for this little human before you have the little human? That struck me so powerfully that it's, Maybe our culture will move in that direction. Maybe there are resources. I just don't know about because I'm not in that conversation, but I just saw it in the adoption process. And it's fascinating to watch. It's just so interesting how the assumptions about what it means to be a good girl, a good mom, just drive this series of actions without. anyone slowing, hopefully, I mean, society certainly isn't maybe hopefully you have someone in your life that is helping you think through this, but this whole idea that women are natural nurturers, that women long to take care of children and they're the best ones for it. And that they have this innate ability to just know what the baby needs. I'll tell you when you're holding a screaming baby at three o'clock in the morning, you do not know what that needs. And you want more than anything else. to just get some rest so that you feel human. And so I, love your comment, Melissa, because it just highlights another part of this. Decision train that we're programmed to get on and we just make all these decisions one after another without the help of society, or enculturation, at least slowing us down to say, Hey, is this a choice you're actually wanting to make for yourself? What are your reasons? If you have reasons that you love, fantastic. Have children. What support do you need? What kind of training do you need? What kind of nervous system, state are you in? And here's what it might be like for you to be raising children when you have, these events in your past. I grew up 1 of 6 children. My upbringing was absolutely predictable and stable and, no trauma that I can point to as, difficult things happening that were out of my control, but I didn't know how to feel feelings. I didn't know how to, help my kids feel their feelings. I didn't understand what my own feelings were. I would have periods of huge overwhelm. And so all of that to say, it doesn't even matter if. There isn't capital T trauma or what you might, describe as traumatic events. I just think we do women and people who choose to have children such a disservice by not opening up the conversation to include all of the different pieces of what it's like to actually have a good experience yourself. Raising another, I was just going to add on to that and being raised. Just the continuation of the trauma conversation, yeah, generational trauma all through it. as an adult, I can see what my mom was struggling with, but as a kid, it just sucked. And just trying to navigate it, to deal with it, to prepare myself for her emotions or her meltdowns, or try to reparent her without getting parented myself. And then my dad also had his own trauma, but it manifested in a different way because he lost his mom at a young age. Mothers were just, like, They can do no wrong. So my mom would do some really unhinged shit. And then he'd just be like, you have a mother and it'd be like, ah, so that experience matters to I'm a firm believer that. Everybody has trauma. No matter what you do, your kids are going to have something to heal from, but you could do some work to give them less. Absolutely. And to just be aware, I'm really grateful that you said that because I think what we think is that what matters the most are children, but we don't pay enough attention to the quality of their experience. Right, and to the quality of the experience of the people who are parenting them and in a perfect world. I think we would have, loving supportive communities to help each other through this and we don't have that. We don't have that. Even though I did feel a lot of compulsion in childbearing, I had a very supportive. Church community. I had a large family community. And even with that, there were still tons of moments of overwhelm and feeling completely alone, surrounded by people, right? And we just don't do a very good job of providing. Equal attention to the experience that children are having and the experience that parents are having doing that. So I'm really grateful. You said that Amber. Anyone else wanted to add anything to that before we go on to another question? Melissa? Yeah, let's hear it. So, the 2 pieces that you touched on were my experience. 1 was I grew up with really kind hearted, good people who had very little emotional. Bill or depth or breadth and my mom struggled, as a mom and I saw that the quality of how that impacted me. It was another reason I kept on thinking I need to go figure myself out why I feel so bad all the time before I think about kids. I was trying to sort of, figure that out 1st, and that seemed really important to me. Because I do think that and I'm a little bit older, I'm 61. so I do think that our generation didn't and my parents for sure just didn't have the, understanding that we have now about how to care for, ourselves, mentally, emotionally, all the parts and how that benefits not only the kids, but the moms and the dads. I mean, the whole family. Susie, I was just going to add to that, that I think 1 of the important things there that you mentioned that relates to what Melissa was saying, too, is Sarah, you had so much support. You know, it really does take a village to raise a child and outside of, the U. S. and a lot of Western cultures, you do have families and communities and I see that also in my family that, the kids and the grandkids are always there with my cousins and my grandmother helped raise my sister's kids and just things like that. I do think that is a very important circumstance that in a sort of, individualized society, like we have in the US and maybe in Canada as well, Pauline, where you're expected to be able to do it all yourself. And that does just put so much pressure. No wonder, I think for all of us, we were only if we have a partner. Because that's already a huge burden and I think if we had more societal support, then that it might be easier for somebody to make the choice to choose. But if you don't have that kind of societal support. And you're dealing with all your own trauma and all that. You're going to be stressed out. You're just not going to be able to be a good parent or have a good experience. It's the kind of thing that I wish more people would think about who thinks like, babies are important and everybody should have babies, but then they don't think about how do we support families and that kind of thing. Yeah, absolutely. In the United States, there's, a whole pro life movement that cares very much about getting the baby here and doesn't pay a lot of attention to the quality of the experience of that baby. Once, it is here and, it's tough. It is really tough. And I appreciate what you said, Susie. What would each of you say to someone who, I was talking about this interview with my husband last night, just how, excited I was. And he mentioned one of his first jobs, he, worked at a phone center he was selling long distance plans. That gives you an idea of the age range that we have on her. Amber just laughs. She's like long distance plans. Yeah. And there was a woman he worked with who didn't have any children and he was just fascinated by her, but he thought she was selfish. He was totally a product of, the programming. So what would each of you say to someone who has that thought? Not having, not having children, that's really selfish. Yes, it is. And don't do it unless you want to. I mean, it's so it needs to be brand selfish is what I think. I love it. I just think that selfish, has some, for me, I grew up Southern Baptist. It's got some religious connotation where some moral implication there's a big problem if you're selfish. but being able to care for yourself, understand yourself, have insight into yourself and let that inform the decision to have a child or not, is the rebranding of selfish I'm interested in. I think, a lot of times people think, the parents are selfish or the non parents are selfish. So they would think, Oh, Pauline's being very selfish by not having children because, I'm just self absorbed or something. But I actually think that, it would be selfish for me to have Children because, I have so much, unresolved things in my past that I'm working to resolve that, as you were mentioning, the experience of the child would be very, very not good quality. Let's just say. And so, I'm sparing, A child or a being from, experiencing my parenting style with all the baggage that I'm, carrying, I saw my parents being triggered a lot, and they weren't necessarily in full control of their emotions reactions behaviors. Because of their trauma. And, had a very unpleasant childhood. I'm a child of a, narcissistic parent. No one ever thinks that that narcissistic parent was selfish in having children because they wanted. Whatever they wanted. So I think, the perspective of what is selfish is so important and to the conversation we were having earlier the child is expected to do so much like, hold the family together and fulfill women's needs. Bodily pinnacle potential, in our society, and here's a big one, they're supposed to take care of you when you're old, like all of these expectations the child is supposed to heal you, the child is supposed to love you and provide, all of your fulfillment of potential that dreams that you didn't get to have, or you didn't get to fulfill I think that kind of expectation is really selfish. And so having children, when you think about it that way, and a lot of people, because they haven't had the thought process of actively choosing to have children, that could be seen as a very selfish act. If they're bringing all of that into their child's life. I think, the perspective of selfish can be very, liberating if you just take it from the other side. I love how you flip that because if you think about a woman saying, I have no idea how to take care of my My inner rage. I have no emotional regulation skills. I am simply fulfilling a lot of the ideals of society that have been placed on me. I am trying to have this baby so that my partner feels obligated to stay with me. I'm going to have a baby for those reasons. I think that's pretty selfish, right, to expect a child to do all of those things for you to not have. And I'm just trying to imagine some of the comments this, this episode is going to get because I know that those aren't the only two options, but I do think it is stunning. The amount that the lack of self. Awareness and inquiry with which many people have children and the type of experience that ends up creating for both the parent and the child. I just think that's something important to name, and I'm glad that you did that, Pauline. Anyone else want to weigh in on this selfish? I love redefining this. Amber and then Susie. Okay, yeah, I'm jumping on this 1 with both feet 10 toes down, because I believe we're supposed to be selfish and just to kind of. Juxtapose both what Melissa and Pauline were saying, because I was agreeing with both of it. I pulled up the definition and I think there's 2 sides to the definition of selfishness and where looking at 1 side of the coin, okay, so, selfish is an adjective of a person action or motive lacking consideration for others. And who is concerned chiefly with 1's own personal profit or pleasure. I think, that 1st part of lacking consideration for others, that's what we get demonized for, being selfish. But, we're not saying that you shouldn't care about anybody else. And speaking of what Pauline was saying, having a kid without being prepared for a kid, or just doing it just to do it because you think it's like, that is more selfish because. You're not concerned about that child's experience. You're not concerned about, growing up the partner's experience, everything that has to go into raising a child. And just thinking about a macro scale as well. How many children are homeless? How many children are going hungry? How many children are in great environments, but everyone should just have more instead of What about people who choose not to have kids who take care of other kids who have already been brought into the world? That is the opposite of selfishness. But then when we look at the other side of the definition, I'm concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure. Yeah, I'm firmly that we're supposed to be because no one else is going to care more about us than we do. And I feel like a huge problem is in society is expecting that they should and us going above and beyond for everybody else. When we don't do that for ourselves. no, fill your own cup. So you can fill others with what else runs over. And then when you do that, you're not doing, oh, I should have a kid just because, What anybody else says, or what I think about myself, or I need to be complete. I need to be healed. I need to be loved or whatever. No, you do all of that for yourself. So then if you choose to have a kid, it's completely additive. They're not filling in any holes for you. It's truly because you want to. And then I think that is when you can selflessly parent. That's my rant. Amen. And though I feel like all of us, one of the reasons that I love this conversation is because I do love coaching and I love the way coaching brings awareness and, do feel like I'm at a point where my, definition of selfish is clear. Totally different than what it was before and Amber, it is exactly in line with what you said, is no one else has the job or is as concerned with my experience as me. And so I should take full responsibility for making it as amazing as possible. Susie hit me with your selfish thoughts. My selfish thoughts. I agree with all of the things you beautiful ladies have said. I love it. I think one of the things is, I will say that it still triggers me a little. I'm just kind of being very honest, aware. That in a way when, if somebody were to say I was being selfish, my initial trigger is like, Oh, you know, I kind of stiffen up. Right. And I could feel that in my body even as you guys were talking, I totally agree intellectually with everything you're saying. And, this is one of those words that gets used against women. You know, men are allowed to be selfish. That definition that Amber read, it's like, greed is good, you know. Right. It's like, yes, you're supposed to be selfish, but women are not, right? So I think it's super interesting because I can feel that still in my body that that's still a part of my conditioning. There are other words that I have deconditioned that are used against women that could be used here. So a Spanish word is, uh, you know, don't, don't, you know, you're, how would you say that? Sarah without shame, yeah, like, yeah, you should be ashamed and you're not. Yes, exactly. And that's a real Latina thing that at least I always got, no fear sinvergüenza or so if some, so I know for that one, if somebody says, hi, que sinvergüenza, then I'm like, thank you. I'm not very, I would selfish. And I don't know, but I want to redeem it. I'm, I'm totally with you, Melissa, that you're like, we should just change what it means and empower it. But I do think that because it's so tied up into this masculine feminine binary, That it's like, oh, men get to be selfish and that's how it's defined and women are not allowed to be a part of me just wants to throw it out, and just be like, well, that's a dumb word. And if somebody were to say, well, that's selfish because you didn't have kids, I'd be like, Oh, what do you mean by that? Oh, yeah, tell me. And then I would just let them talk until they sounded so stupid to themselves that they'd have to shut up because there's no way to defend it. It's just a commonplace phrase that you use to shame women. But if you really ask, then I kind of feel like that meme of, Willy Wonka, when he's going like, Oh, tell me more, I think that's kind of how I would help it and let people, fall into that, into their own trap of realizing they're really stupid. So that was just my share that I'm still grappling with it. I don't know if it's redeemable. And if somebody told me that I'd be like, Oh, really? Tell me more. I love, I love that honesty. And I love, the fact that you pointed out that, do men get told that they're selfish for not having children? I don't know. I think the fact that we don't even know, I think that answers the question, right? That it's not, a charge that gets hurled at men the same way that it gets hurled at women. But I almost think it's a compliment. If a man is selfish, it's a compliment. Like, they're supposed to be that's that's probably true. Yeah, that's probably true. Amber. What were you going to add? Yeah, even with your husband, I don't know if it crossed his mind that, she wouldn't be able to work if she had children and he's like, Oh, you're being selfish. And it's just like, what if she's just feeding herself, you know, like, I don't know where y'all were at in your relationship, but you were taking care of the kids and it didn't cross his mind. Yes. Well, and that's the thing is that this is before we met, but so deeply was he programmed that and I love the age range that we have here. This woman was older than him. He, he didn't say that, but that the programming is inescapable and that even in the mind of a guy who had no idea what it's like to take care of children. He just knew that she was not doing what she was quote unquote supposed to be doing and that it was selfish. And it was just such a fascinating part of us realizing so thoroughly where we programmed to believe that women should have children, that we didn't even ask questions like, tell me a little bit more about your decision not to tell me, tell me kind of how you arrived here. It was just, Nope, you should be having children. And it's just so damaging as well, because I know we're on this, cast for being child free by choice. And I know everybody doesn't make that choice, but people don't ask that when they just say these things or ask these questions and they look at women and be like, oh, you're of age, but you don't have, little ducklings running after you. Something's wrong with you, you're being selfish, you're this, you're that, but, you have no idea what the story is or what's going on or how hard they tried or how bad they wanted it. If they did want it and, all that kind of stuff. And then you're adding fuel to the fire to make them feel worse about themselves for not achieving what you think they should have, even though they gave it their all. Does that still mean that they're selfish? Yeah. And if it doesn't mean that in that context, then it just doesn't mean that. Yeah. That's such a good comment. I want to add something to that when amber just said, because I will say that in the gap between when I decided to stay with my husband and not have kids. And when I finally figured out that it was the best decision ever, there was a lot of that, right? That it was actually an easy way to shut people up if they asked me why I didn't have kids. Oh, because we tried and we couldn't. And then they would be like, oh, but there's also this pitying thing, right? That secretly there's something wrong with you as a woman that you couldn't. But at least they set up about it. Yes, I know that a lot of women in, very conservative religious groups, like the one I grew up in, we do feel like there's something wrong with us if we can't have children, that that's how God made us, that's what God made us to do. And so if we can't, it's such an unkind burden, and we just don't give women a lot of, options for how to think about it differently because we're so busy calling them selfish and asking them why they don't have kids yet. So here's the question I just want to wrap up with. What is the best thing about not having children? What do you love about it? Because I have noticed nothing makes people angry. Like women talking freely about The unconventional choice that they've made that they love people get pissed when you see a woman talking about how much she loves spending her time on herself, doing her own things as if her time was never really her own to begin with. Right. So I want to hear from you. What are some of the things you enjoy most about not having children? Suzy, you go first. I have so much more money. I have too much more free time. My husband and I, we both work from home and we don't have to get up and drive kids anywhere. Like we get up, we play with the cats, we meditate, we work, we have lunch, we take a nap. I just love all of it. And there's no drama either. we don't have any drama over any of it because I just keep seeing so many people with drama over kids and stuff and And I feel like a lot of people my age, I'm in my fifties, I don't know if this is true, their kids all have oh, they have ADHD and they have anxiety and they have this and they have that. And, and I was just like, wow, I dodged a bullet. You know, I just love feeling so much more relaxed. I have so much more money and I have so much more time. I love it. So that, that's my answer. Love it. Amber. Yeah. Retweet everything Susie said, but it feels like real freedom. He's even like, growing up and being a kid and there was like, oh, you're free. You could do whatever you want. And college is the best time of your life. No, it wasn't. I didn't have no money. I didn't know what the hell to do with myself. I was always like, ah, ah, a job, a life, a day. I got to find a husband. Like it wasn't fun. But now where I'm at, I have money. I have free time. I have capacity. I've healed from trauma. It's a journey. I'm able to actually play out all my kid fantasies. I'm able to, go to the zoo in the middle of day and not bring kids. I'm able to not think about. Oh, I have to find a babysitter before I do X, Y, Z. I can't get drunk because then the kids are gonna piss me off when they start screaming and I got a hangover. none of these thoughts cross my mind. And then, just to say it again, I brought it up earlier, I can be more involved in community. I have capacity for community. I can be a village to my peers. I think, That's the best part for me of parenting right now. I get to be there for all the good stuff, even when they do dumb things and they mess up. I imagine being the fun on they're going to come to me when they want to try drugs and other shit. All of that, I have that capacity and. I don't have to get burnt out. I don't have to get like, question myself all the time. It's just, it's freedom. It's freedom, Pauline. I agree with all of the above. It's the money. And it's the freedom and I feel like I'm the embodiment of the good things about not having kids. I'm 47 this year, and two years ago, I retired from my career. Because didn't have kids I didn't have to really think about, you know, Oh, how am I gonna, for college for them or provide for them. I did what was best for me. Also, because I didn't have kids, I was able to save up the money invested and, fund my retirement. And then when people ask, who's going to take care of me, I'm like, When I get old, everywhere, I tell them and am a little sarcastic, but I'm like, my money's going to take care of me. So I kind of feel like, this is who I am. And again, I coach women to, be financially educated and successful. So I feel like being childless really allowed me. To do that. More money, more freedom, to make the important choices like, quit my, high pressure career that was literally killing me, and pursue something different and money wasn't, a hindrance. So I feel like that's true freedom. Thanks, Pauline. I love it. Melissa, what do you want to add? Gosh, I just feel like I'm a simpatico company in so many ways. The freedom for sure was a theme of my life. And so it makes sense that this was the choice that I made the best thing about it is just realizing my wife and I raised a family member for 3 and a half years when she was young because of she was had abuse in her family. So she came to live with us and it just affirmed. I was grateful for the experience and humbled by it. I have even more respect for the mamas, love the mamas. But the best thing about being child free for me is my wholeness. Like it affirmed my, this was my life path. This is right for me. This choice is right for me. And then being able to relate to family, like, Amber was pointing to, being able to be there for family, and being able to be at choice with family and a very intentional way. So, being able to curate, experiences for family to come and visit, they were very conscious. And so people could connect in a very conscious way. Just more choice, more freedom. More money, all those things, is there anything that any of you wanted to add to this conversation before we wrap up that you didn't have a chance to say thus far? I just want to thank you, Sarah, for having this conversation because even though I. made this choice the way I did. I've never really talked about it with people. And to hear, as Melissa said, we're in such a simpatico group and I feel like, wow, I guess it's not just me. I think just being able to have this conversation between us and for you to be able to share this with the world and help more women recognize that this is a choice that they have, and that they can also choose, you know, having kids, but just to make it intentionally. It's so powerful and it's nice to have a sisterhood of women who. We don't have to feel ashamed. We don't have to have it wins. Uh, and, and we don't have to feel selfish. We could feel so full maybe. I don't know. So I just wanted to say that. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you. Absolutely. That is my hope with this episode. I am not plugging any particular choice, right? I obviously have made different choices and would make them again, and I guess I'll say this, I know that there are a lot of women who already have children who have some sadness and some regret about either the number or the way that it happened. And so to them, I would say, I hope you can hear in this episode that there is still a way to come to, some more peace about what has happened. If you are a woman who is making or somebody raised as a woman who's making choices about whether or not you want to become a future parent, there's some really beautiful advice here about choosing it for reasons that you like and making sure that you have some support. And then if you decide. You know what? I just don't think children are for me. Your words, I think are going to offer a lot of support to women. And what I hope is that people can just choose what they want. So thank you to each of you for contributing to a really beautiful, fantastic conversation. I appreciate it so much. Thank you so much.