Episode 78 - Unconventional Choices: Alternative Relationship Structures with Ali Ryan and Laura Jurgens

This week, I continue my series on unconventional choices by exploring alternative relationship structures. I am incredibly thankful to my guests, Ali Ryan and Dr. Laura Jurgens, for sharing their insight on alternative relationship structures and their experience and advice on navigating them with love and respect.  

Ali Ryan is the CEO of Ali Ryan Coaching. Ali is a certified feminist integrative coach dedicated to disrupting the status quo in parenting and leadership and shifting intergenerational cycles of trauma. With influence from her unique background and personal journey, Ali helps families and leaders break free from traditional molds, embrace more compassionate approaches, and foster environments where individuals can thrive and flourish, regardless of their past or present challenges. 

Dr. Laura Jurgens hosts the podcast Sex Help for Smart People and specializes in helping people connect better to themselves and their partners by playing their way to better intimacy. A dual-certified cognitive and somatic coach and former research scientist and biology professor, Laura uses experiential practices to enable individuals and couples to build joyful confidence. Her approach is practical, research-based, inclusive, and de-shaming. 

Together, they bring invaluable perspectives on relationship structures and how to engage in loving, consensual relationships that fulfill your wants and needs.  If you’re interested in understanding alternative relationships or exploring the structure for yourself, or you want to take a more intentional approach to the type of relationship you choose to be part of, this episode is for you. Join us and learn how to excavate your actual desires from beneath your societal, good-girl programming and engage in relationships that align with your most authentic self. I can’t wait for you to listen.

Find Laura here:
https://laurajurgens.com
https://www.instagram.com/laura.jurgens.coach/
https://www.facebook.com/laurajurgenscoaching/

Find Ali here:
www.aliryancoaching.com
https://www.instagram.com/ali_ryan__?igsh=MXE3dWdrdHN2dmx0dQ%3D%3D
https://www.facebook.com/awesterwoman010811/

Find Sara here:
https://sarafisk.coach
https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/
https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/
https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333
https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach
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Transcript

0:51

You are listening to the X Good Girl podcast, episode 78. Typically, when a woman comes to talk to me about how I can help her end people pleasing and perfectionism, there is a fair amount of anxiety and resentment that's built up over decades of keeping the good girl rules and really staying within the traditional structures that we have been handed. And The question that isn't always what they ask, but it is what they're asking is, is this it? Is the way that I've been living my life for the past X number of decades, the rules that I've been trying to keep the people that I've been trying to keep happy outside of me, like, is this what I'm going to be doing forever? Because there's some discontent with that, and there's not a lot of options in terms of doing something different. That's why I wanted to bring you this conversation today with Laura Juergens and Allie Ryan, because we're going to be talking. About exploring alternate relationship structures, non traditional relationships. There's a lot of interest in the, podcast episode. I did a few weeks back with Kimberly Mathis. And so I wanted to bring. Laura and Ali on to have a little bit more of a deep discussion around. What you need to understand personally, the tools you need to be developing the pieces of the puzzle that come with exploring this type of change in relationships or this type and just the structure of the way you do things now, to be sure, I am a 25 year monogamously married woman. I'm a fan of the relationship structure that I have chosen. But what I will say is doing the work to choose your relationship structure intentionally can be done at any time and is well worth it. So listen in to this conversation with Laura and Allie and then let me know what you think. One of the things that I am pretty committed to as I find myself kind of going on this journey is Breaking down traditional definitions, because for so long, I felt like that was just a prison for me, you know, a woman does this, this, and this to be a good mom, a good wife, a good sister, a good, whatever. And as I kind of went further into those definitions, one of the ones that, fascinates me is how we have. Just been handed these ideas of traditional relationships and what they should look like, and I really wanted to have a conversation with people who are on the inside of practicing alternative relationships. And we're even maybe going to talk about what a better term is what we'll see here, but I have Laura Juergens and Allie Ryan, and I am so grateful for your time today. Laura, why don't you introduce yourself first and then Allie. Great. Thanks, Sarah. I'm. Yeah, I'm Dr. Laura Juergens. I am an intimacy coach and a relationship coach. I'm somatically trained too, so I work a lot with sort of our body and our nervous system. And my main focus is helping women, especially women over 40, feel that sort of like, Finally free in our sexuality. So many of us wander through life feeling sexually repressed in some way. And we get into our forties and sort of maybe we finally realized really reclaiming sexuality for ourselves is something that I do in my practice with my clients. So that's me. I love that. I do have a lot of women looking around at different areas of their life and they're kind of like, Is this what I'm just always going to do? Like what I've done for the past three or four decades? Is this all there is? Is this all there is? Do I have to sort of settle for this? Is it my hormones, which side note, usually no. So yeah, all of those questions my clients have too. And I've had them right. I've been there. So absolutely, absolutely what I do. Yep. Well, I'm so glad you're here. Allie. Hi, thank you, Sarah. My name is Allie Ryan. I am a certified feminist mind body coach. I help parents stop hating their kids. I am somatically trained, also somatically trained and really work with parents who are overwhelmed, resentful, really struggling with perfectionism and help them uncover really what's going on there, help them work through, Really their own acceptance in their own lives, stop parenting the way that they were parented. Oftentimes because of the way that modeling works, we're do the same thing for our kids and they actually need very different things and help them just redesign or design a life that they really love that helps them create an identity outside of just like you mentioned the label of mom, parent. Um, wife, right? Because there's so much more to our personality and to who we are, other than that label of mom. And that's really what I struggled with for a lot of years is I knew there was so much more for me outside of just being a mom, being a nurse, being a wife, so much more that I, that I ended up uncovering. Yeah, I'm so happy to be here. Well, I've been looking forward to this conversation ever since we, we agreed to have it. And. I think we're all the same in that we come to this work of coaching through a lens of feminism of, being embodied so that you can get the information that is down here in your body and not just kind of where we tend to live, which is up in our head in the very logical. Let's talk first about what are we talking about when we talk about alternative relationship structures? I come at it from very little actual knowledge, personally, as I have mentioned Before I will have been married 25 years to the same man this month, and I was a virgin when I got married, because that was what my religious background, taught me to be, and the, punishments for being otherwise were severe enough to scare me into waiting to get married. But I have not encouraged my children to follow the same path at all. We are no longer, not only not practicing members of that religious organization anymore, but we have very different discussions now about what a relationship is, what it should look like. And so, Laura, tell me what your thoughts are about what I am just calling alternative relationship structures. Sure. So that could run the gamut, right? But I think what we're really talking about here are consensual agreements to have some sort of relationship structure that is not following the sort of monogamous norm. And while I say monogamous norm, that doesn't mean that traditional monogamous relationships that people Say are monogamous or talk about as monogamous are actually monogamous. A lot of times. We know that the statistics on people having extramarital affairs, for example. Are really very high, and that has been the case for a. Very long time, right? So, ever since the sort of monogamous structure was put into place through culture and religion, we've had cheating. On that structure and predominantly for men because they were the ones who had the least amount of social and financial and physical consequences for that. So that doesn't mean that's all it's only men, but it's certainly been much more acceptable for men over women. The past many hundreds of years, so it's not that humans are actually monogamous our cultural structures have in the recent past in the last sort of, you know, few 100 years have really. Focused on monogamy being the norm. So anything outside of that could be considered that is consensual in particular, because what we're looking at with monogamy is there's, the pseudo monogamy with a lot of cheating. So it's not really monogamy. And then there's. Non monogamous structures that are consensual where both parties or multiple parties are agreeing to some sort of non monogamous structure. So that's what we're talking, Ali. What do you want to add to that? Yeah, what I was just thinking is, the relationship alternative relationship structures is sort of this nice umbrella term where there's so many things that are underneath that. There's polyamory, there's consensual non monogamy, there's. So many different types of relationship, anarchy, there's all kinds of things they're swinging. It's like a spectrum. And I think that that can be really helpful to know, just like with anything else, there's going to be a lot of different, terms and ways to look at it that don't just fall under, if you're not strictly monogamous, then you're this totally other thing. Just like with anything else, there's nuance, there's. A lot of subjectivity to it. And what I love is like how Laura said, we get to co create what we want to in our lives. That's the most beautiful thing here that I love about that. I just want to echo that, that it's about choice and it's about making intentional conscious choice. And there's all kinds of different ways to do that. I love that. Intentional conscious choice, lots of ways to do that. I want to drill down for just a second on the word consensual, because I feel like if that's at the heart, right, of what we're talking about, then let's really understand what it is, and I'm going to throw out how I talk about consensuality, and I would love for you to add or take away anything that you feel is important. So, for me, the only place I actually feel if something is consensual is in my body. Because up in my head, I can talk myself into all kinds of things for other people from my training from my habitual programming of what it is like to be a good, you know, female human. And so I find that there's a difference, when I'm asked if I want to do something up in my head, I can kind of talk myself into it for some reasons. But when I Ask my body when I go into my body. That's the only place I truly know if it's a yes or a no. What are your thoughts about that as it relates to consensual alley? Do you have some thoughts? And then we'll go to Laura. Yeah, the first thing is that, like, oh my gosh, it just took me years. Like you said, the idea of non monogamy and polyamory was really amazing up here. And down here, there was actually a lot of trauma that I had to work through to actually get in my body and decide what actually works for me. The first thing that comes to mind is like, wow, what a journey, what an evolution it's been because it really uncovered a lot that I was unwilling or maybe just didn't even know how to acknowledge what was going on. And so, yes, there's a lot of body yeses that had to, I had to work through and actually figure out, is this a yes, because I want it to be a yes. And is this a different level of people pleasing or is this like, no, this really works for me because this is deep inside of like, this is the yes I want. And like what you're saying just resonates so much of like, We grow up in this, for me anyway, in this society where I could so easily be like. Joel into doing different things because of being flexible and adaptable and easy going. And so I had to work through a lot of that in my own journey. Which kind of adds to this whole other layer of like, just deciding you want to do an alternative relationship structure. That's not, like, okay, the end we're good. There's so much more that you have to actually learn about what actually you like and don't like. That's just. I think it's a really important part of this journey. Laura, what do you think? Well, I really just want to honor exactly what you're saying. And I think we all agree. Cause I hear Ali saying it too, which is that our real yeses and nos, we have to look to. Into our body for but that doesn't mean that's we're not going to be activated we might find that. For example, for me, monogamy just felt like a no, it just really over. I thought I could do it for a long time and I tried. I definitely thought I was supposed to and that I might be a bad person if I didn't because that's the message that we're given. But ultimately, the way that I am wired is I get really excited about people and connecting with people and I really enjoy that connection and it feels to me. When I look at an external structure that's imposing a rule on me, that just doesn't sit very well. Right? So the, norm of like, okay, you have decided that you are, going to partner with this person and therefore your choices on a day to day basis about your body and what you do with, your body and the kind of pleasure that you are allowed is now sort of restricted forever to this particular person and the way that you and they interact and that felt inside me like a no but that doesn't mean that the sort of yes to changing that was easy inside there's definitely Like activation that comes up, there was, all kinds of fears that came up and it was actually a really wonderful, but very challenging process to learn about myself and my primary partner, because I have a structure where I'm married, but then have. Other relationships outside my mark. So we really had to spend and we had gone from monogamy to this consent based non monogamy and that was a process of deep learning about each other, intense levels of intimacy that we needed to get to. It is not for a broken relationship. It is not a way to like, It picks a mess of relationship where you both actually just want to be with other people. It really takes a lot of connection and intimacy to do that. So that yes and no in the body, it's pretty easy to sometimes miss the cues for yes and no when there's anxiety and when there's triggers, but that doesn't mean that the yes and no aren't there. So I wanted to give that caveat to yes, absolutely it's in the body, but sometimes we're also going to. Find a whole mess of other business in there that we'll need to clean up. I'm really glad you said that. And I think you gave it that definition more of a richness that I think, can hold the actual experience because, as you know, I help women learn to stop people pleasing and perfectionating. And the first time they go to not please someone else, it can be terror inducing, right? And that doesn't mean. That it's a no from a consent standpoint, right? It just means that as I am changing the way I relate to the world in my people, pleasing. I have some. Programming that really wants me to not. Change my people pleasing and I have to be with this terror or this panic or this anxiety in a loving kind way, because I do want to change this, this habit for myself. I can appreciate that. And I'm really glad both of you added a lot to that, so my, experience with. Non monogamous relationships. I have some friends and family members and acquaintances. I've had some clients and Laura, what you said across the board. I have seen to be true. Is that when. Consensual non monogamy alternative relationship structures are taken on as a way to fix something that seems to be broken or not working. It doesn't work. So let's just start from the ideal. If you are curious about. An alternative relationship structure, where would be the ideal place to start exploring that from? I'm going to think about that question for just a minute, Sarah, and I might, if it's all right with you, answer a side question there, because I think we're not ever in an ideal place. I don't know when that happens. I just don't want anybody to feel like there's a place you quote unquote should be right. the place that you are is the place that you should be. If you're having feelings that are very natural about potentially being interested in exploring. An alternative relationship structure. It is a really important question to ask. Do I have a good foundation of communication with my partner? do I have the skills to be able to articulate my desires from a person's point of view? open, honest, authentic, vulnerable place and not a blaming, shaming place, not a disconnecting place. Do I have those skills or do I need to go get those skills? Do I need to work with somebody to learn how to do that? Because these are really challenging conversations. Do I need support? A lot of people are going to need support and you're going to need support, not just from your random marriage and family counselor who has potentially come from a very religious background and is not going to understand the situation or give you any empathy for your desires, but you're going to need somebody who actually understands. That nobody in the situation is a bad person, including if there's somebody who wants to open the relationship, or even just entertain a conversation about it. So, are you resourced both internally? Are you externally resource? And do you have a good line of communication? I think that's a good place to be, or just to be aware of those situations, but nobody's in an ideal situation, right? You know, I have clients who. Have had very successful opening of relationships because maybe they came out late, right? I have a couple clients who come out late as lesbians later in life and are married to wonderful men who they have great marriages with, but they've realized that they're actually gay, and the whole, traditional quote, unquote, wisdom would say, well, that's not going to work. Right, but they've actually managed to have amazing, wonderful continued marriages with this person who is. Their family, and also explore. Their attraction to women, and so that's a structure, but would you be ever told that that was an ideal situation? Absolutely not. But it doesn't mean it can't work. I love that you took that and answered the question that I should have asked, which now that I hear your response is what are the puzzle pieces that you want to be in place? So I heard you say, communication and connection support resources. And then some type of external, internal support and external support and resources. So that's really what I was looking for and what I, just want to continue to explore. So thank you for that answer. Ali, what would you add to that? What came to mind was thinking about the importance of relationship with ourselves. When I discovered that there were other ways to be in relationship other than just monogamy, what I realized was, first of all, How have I gone 32 years without knowing that there was other ways to be? Secondly, I also came out late. So my story, is really interesting in the sense of like, I tried to be married. I tried really hard, two different times, actually. And realize this isn't working and I think it has to do with some of my own patterns, some of the things that I am wanting that I am not even open or understanding what my desires are. And what I realized through that process was, I don't even understand myself. So I think in addition to those puzzle pieces of connection, trust, intimacy with the person you're with. For my relationship. The second marriage that I was in, it had to evolve. It had to evolve into us being co parents, to us living in different houses, but us still maintaining a relationship, a friendship, a co parenting relationship more than anything. And that really forced me, because it was hard. I think that's the thing about change or wanting to be more of ourselves is we have to unlearn and undo a lot of things that we've just been taught. That's compulsory. So I had to understand what it meant to be. I identified as a woman at that time, standing on her own, being her own independent person and understand what I wanted outside of what does society tell me I need to be. And so much of that was learning how to verbalize. Or even understand what did I want? Who was I? What are my preferences? Outside of just the pressures of what came and all of these inputs from all of these different, sources, mostly like that compulsory monogamy, sort of what you're supposed to want versus what I wanted. So I think that's the biggest thing is relationship with self. And for me, I identify as. Solo poly, which I don't, we haven't really gotten into what these different terms are. But that means like, I am my first relationship that I'm in. And that's a really big shift because so much of what we're taught is it's about the person you're with. I had to really undo this notion that if I'm not with someone what am I even contributing to the world? Am I even a valid person without a partner? Right now I'm not partnered. And that's a very interesting thing of being, you think of alternate relationship structures of having a bunch of partners, which I have had at some point. And in different times in my life, but right now, mostly being with me and really building that deep intimacy and dating myself in a lot of ways is where I've been for like a year now and like, whoa, it's so cool, but it's so different than anything I was ever taught. This is what I'm interested in this lock on relationships that monogamy has had. And I'm a fan of monogamy, right? I am a woman in a 25 year monogamous relationship and. I'm a fan, but what I am not a fan of is people using structures to tell other people what they should have to do and what they should their relationship should look like. So that's why I'm just really grateful that we get to have this conversation. So if exploration of. An alternative relationship structure is not to fix a relationship. What is it for then? I just want to add, I think that even monogamy can be super subjective. Like when you were talking about being monogamous, what I was thinking of is there's toxic monogamy where there's a lot of, possessiveness or there's Just these different types of behaviors that are not very healthy. And so I think that's an important thing too, is there's ways to co creator relationship that there's so many ways even to practice monogamy that I think is really important in terms of, again, that co creation is so important. That just I didn't want to forget it. It was like, really important to add. I was really intrigued that Laura said she just felt like monogamy was a no. And, you have your reasons. And so if fixing quote unquote, a relationship is not a good reason to explore alternative relationship structures, what would be some good reasons? I think it really, comes down to what we were just talking about, about intentionality and sort of this conscious co creation of how you want your relationship to be. And for some people, monogamy fits that really well. And that's awesome. That's great. Good for you. You found it consciously. But for many, many, many people, and I would argue most people, they have not chosen monogamy Consciously and intentionally, it's been chosen for them by a social norm. And so without having explored what the other options are, of how you could relate to your partners or to yourself in, and to your own sexuality, really, to your own desires, that's ultimately at the end of the day, what it's about is how do I want to be in the world in connection with other humans? In this body, right? What do I want for me? Where do I want the parameters to be? And then why am I choosing monogamy? It's the question of understanding why we're choosing anything and what does it do for us? It doesn't create security. I can promise you that because we have tons and tons of data that suggests that, you know, quote unquote, monogamous couples are getting divorced all the time, constantly. Right, so it's not creating security. So what is it creating? And is that what you want? And so ultimately I think the answer to your question is what the alternative relationship structures offer is just a bigger menu, right? How do we want our relationship to be? How do we want to relate to each other? How do we want to relate to our freedom as humans in the world? And our choices, do we want to make all of them in advance? Do we want to make some of them in advance? Which ones do we want to make in advance together? Which ones do we want to make with other people? How do we navigate the freedom that we have? Because we all have freedom to do whatever we want, unless we are incarcerated, we have freedom to do whatever we want and have those connections. We just have to decide, are we open? What are we open to? And what do we want for ourselves? I love that. How do I want to be in connection to other humans in this body? And why? Because we actually did have the conversation. Hey, I'm talking about my husband and I like, what do you think of this monogamy thing we've been doing and talked it through. And I feel like with as much information as we had at the time, we were able to choose with intention. Like, yeah, I like what we're doing. Let's keep doing it. And if there is anyone who is listening, that is curious. I think that's just a fantastic question. How do I want to be in connection to other humans in this body and why I really think that's fantastic. Yeah, you can always revisit that decision, right? Like it's useful to revisit periodically. And to say, hey, we're going to agree to this, even with whether it's non monogamy or monogamy, I suggest in relationships, checking in really regularly. With what it is that you do want, because maybe there's a time when you're in some sort of expansion. Maybe you've healed something and you decide that you want to have some new experiences. Maybe you've all of a sudden decided that your sexuality might have changed a little bit and you want it. You maybe you've gotten bi curious, you know, some just life changes happen and you might want to revisit regularly and your partner might want to revisit regularly without feeling like. You're not blowing everything up in having a conversation, having an open conversation usually means the opposite. It doesn't mean that anybody is planning on, you know, betraying you. It just means that somebody is interested in being open and honest with you, which is a gift. That is such a gift in such a beautiful way. The only thing that I really have to compare it to in terms of, like. Huge, you know, life altering scenarios is when my husband came to me and said, that he was really struggling in this religious organization in which we were both active and practicing and the opportunity for me to support him while, on his own path and me having my own path. I think that's one of the things that. I see a lot is the enmeshment with which we tend to live in our relationships where I'm only fine if you're fine and what you do, has the power to, change fundamentally this relationship that we have. It was a really huge learning opportunity for the both of us that we could actually be on 2 different paths from a religious standpoint and still maintain a loving connected relationship. And at the heart of that was our ability to communicate and to tell each other the truth. So when you are working with, clients and yourself. What would you have to say about communication and being able to be safely, communicative about the experience that you're having? Ellie, what would you say about that? I think that the first word that I thought it was like, radical honesty is often how we talk about this with my clients is. Willingness to be really honest with themselves to the best of their ability, wanting to connect and maintain closeness, right? Because like Laura said, I think we're so afraid, even the term boundaries can make people kind of stifle a little bit and get a little stiff. And the reality is like, these conversations are about getting closer. They're about building intimacy. They're about me showing you my reality. And it being accepted and the vice versa, like each knowing each other's reality and letting it be that we might have different realities and different perceptions of it, but that no one is like right or wrong in that like we get to have that for ourselves. I Guess safety also really comes to mind of how do we create safety and conversation, not only for ourselves, but also for our partners or for kids, right? Like, how do we create this container where we both feel, or everyone feels safe, held, seen, and understood to the best of our ability are the first things that come to mind. That's beautiful. Laura, what would you add to that? I love that and I agree completely. I think what you're talking about with the relationship with your husband and how you felt this change in, his journey and therefore it's sort of the path that you thought that you were on together, that is the moment, just like the conversation around non monogamy might be a moment where there's an opportunity to come. With empathy for somebody's experience that might be different than us and putting aside some of our expectations of what we think is quote unquote supposed to happen and what we had already planned and instead actually really listening to what somebody's reality is like Allie's talking about and the skills that I teach clients around this, this is the hardest thing. And hardest thing was really challenging for me. Also, I think the most valuable thing by far, because it is so incredibly satisfying and it is real connection. And it is real intimacy when you can actually share with somebody your authentic self. In all of their messiness in all of their challenging feelings and you can share it vulnerably and have it just heard and not judged just okay. That's where you're at and I hear you and I hear that those feelings must be challenging. Right? Even if what I'm saying is I have all these desire. I'm scared to tell you that I have all these desire. Right? I really want to explore this new side of me that I'm just discovering and I am terrified that you are going to. Judge me, you're going to hate me, you're going to think I'm a horrible person, you're going to run away, you're going to break our family, whatever, right? That is me saying, okay, here, I have these desires, but I'm sharing it in a way where I'm also sharing all the challenge and the delicateness of the human condition, right? Our fears around our desires. And if somebody can then say, okay, I hear that. And I hear that these are the feelings you're having, like literally just. Empathize. Oh, gosh, I've felt that way before. And this isn't about me. This is just about this is how you feel, right? Those are the moments of real intimacy and connection, and we can learn that skill. It's just a skill learning how to have this vulnerable sharing listening empathetically. It's the foundation of repairing all conflicts. In a way where you come out the other side stronger and it's a really important skill. If you're entering it all into having a conversation about your relationship structure, whether that's a monogamous structure or a non monogamous structure, when you really dive into what are we doing here in partnership together and could we be incredibly authentic. With ourselves and each other that is a big ask and it's a vulnerable place to go, So my hope is whatever relationship structure that people land on for their desires that that's what they choose to do Is that they choose to be intimate? Because you can be distant and disconnected in any relationship structure I mean, in my 25 year monogamous relationship structure, there have been long periods of disconnection where I couldn't say the things That were really weighing on me, like, I'm afraid you're going to leave me, or I'm afraid of how much I need you. It scares me how much I want to be with you all the time. And so I love the, communication piece, whether radical honesty feels like it fits for you, or like, for me, just being able to say the words that feel like they always kind of get stuck right here in my throat I have seen the same thing true when I have worked with, women who have been entering alternative relationship structures is that saying the words, man, that's a tender, tender, tender thing. Yeah, absolutely. That's why it helps to have somebody to practice with. So yeah, that's one of the things I do in my practice is I role play with people. I practice with people so that you can be more confident going into a difficult conversation with somebody else. But whether you do it with a coach, whether you do, you know, only choose a friend if they're like really competent, right? Family member, but whoever you do it with, you know, even practicing in front of the mirror can be helpful too. But sometimes you need to practice some hard things. And it is hard to get those things out. It's a challenge. Yeah, following this communication thread, how do you decide, like, outside of the other person or people in your intimate relationships, your romantic relationships? How do you decide what to talk about with whom and when, and I'm thinking about, you know, children or, who you bring into Thanksgiving dinner, right? And, other family members. So, Allie, I know you have children. What, what are your thoughts about, like, how to talk to this? How to talk about this outside of your romantic partners. The first thing that I want to touch on is just, making sure that that people that are listening understand that. I want to bring up the term relationship escalator, because that is, I think, such an important thing that kind of like how Laura said earlier, when we were not actually choosing monogamy, right? We're just going into it. But what's behind that is this idea of we meet, we date, we get married. Yeah, we've been together. We probably get a dog or a few. We probably have kids, right? This very like scripted. Well, deep, deep, deep right where it's going up in a certain way. And so I, I think it's important to bring that up because when then you're deciding to meet people, whether you're already married or partnered. It's really important to know that people are often going in when you're monogamous with a very certain plan, right? Whether you know it or not, like, we've got this idea of what steps we want to go and how we want to go there. And so I just think it's so important to think about it as like, we've got this whole playground. No one is saying it has to go this way. So the way that I like to bring things up is often like, I've just really taken the romantic relationship off the pedestal. Like that's been sort of one of my biggest things is this is not the ultimate I've been in a mini of them. And they were not the healthiest, right? My friendships are actually where I've had some of the most richest, deepest connections from shifting my perspectives on relationships. And so how do I bring this up with people? First of all, we get to share whatever we feel like sharing, right? I think that's a really important thing. No one is saying that just because you are deciding to shift how you want to engage with the world or how you want to shift your connection with others that you have to then share it with anyone. Because It's just like, if you decide that you're going to quit your job and go be a coach, people are going to have thoughts about what the heck, are you crazy? Is something wrong? Right. Like you're going to have the same kinds of things. And so I just think that's the first thing is you get to decide how much you want to share with my kids. It's been this really interesting conversation that we have where it's almost like with religion, I just want them to have the information of like, you can choose. There's so many different ways to choose of how you want to be in relationship, just like there's so many different types of religions just want you to do your research and feel like what feels good to you. And so that's how I how I talk about it. Also, my kids are at least two or three of them are not. Um, or like, some sort of queer, I don't want to share too much of them, but it's been really helpful for them to understand the world of there's not just 1 way to do things. There's not just 1 way to be. There's not 1 way to present. And so I know I'm not answering your question directly, but I think it's really important to it's like, we can share things in age appropriate ways. And then there's also making sure that we're talking about it in a way. I think that just gives choice. That's actually how I like to talk about it. I don't give some details unless they ask, but with my 17 year old, I remember a couple of years ago, he was like, I can't imagine dating more than 1 person. That sounds like so much work. I'm like, yeah, it kind of is it's a lot of work. Uh, it's a lot of work to be in 1 relationship where you're communicating a lot and really well. Right? So again, I think choice and just talking about it as if they just have all this agency, you know, that's I'm high agency. High autonomy are very big values for me. And that's the way that I like to talk about it as late. We just have all these different ways we can do things. That's beautiful. Laura, what would you add to that? Well, I would just add, some experiences from some clients. So I, have an interesting perspective on parenting, I think, because I'm not a parent. And I was really poorly parented. So one of the nice things that gives me is I get a little bit of an outside perspective because I don't have the, incredible amount of socialized, Messaging that hits the second you have a baby and just really feels like so many people, it really takes over their identity and all of the shoulds about what we're told about how we should be as parents all of a sudden just feel like they have just, some people just feel drowned in it, where they, have to find their way back out. Who the heck am I? Right. So I do work with clients around this and I've had some clients and some friends. Who are non monogamous who've been navigating some of these challenges of talking to their children. And, 1 of the big things I think is. Because of the expectations of the relationship escalator, we all have that. In our heads, but that's just a subconscious expectation because it's a cultural norm. And that means oftentimes we're thinking about. Okay, well, I'm not going to introduce somebody new to my children until dot, dot, dot, and that until is part of that relationship escalator and it's as if, okay, well, we're going to hit some relationship milestone and then I'm going to introduce them to my children. And that is actually. A completely valid choice I do think there's a role to really think consciously of at what point are you introducing the people that you're dating to your children? And that's a really important question. How important to you does this relationship need to be before you introduce your children to people? But you don't have to get into complicated weeds about defining all this stuff for little kids. You're dating somebody, you can say, I'm dating them, right? And it's okay to be dating multiple people. And you kind of leave it at that. Do you have feelings about it? Have a conversation about it, right? Once they get older, then, as Allie's talking about, you can have more age appropriate conversations about all the sort of relationship assumptions, whether it's heterosexuality, or whether it's gender, or gender roles, what consent in sex, you want to also have conversations about relationship structures. Those are things that it's very useful for kids to understand. And if parents don't have enough information on that, there's great resources. Out there for that. But, talking to other people, it's really actually an important concern. A lot of people who are in alternative relationship structures who are non monogamous are not out at work are not out are hiding their identity on apps because for example, if you're a teacher or you're in a custody battle, These kinds of things could be used against you, just like having a particular kink could be used against you. if you're a person who likes to get spanked, that could be used against you if you're a teacher. You know, those people's sexual preferences as consenting adults are unfortunately shamed very heavily in society, including through the legal system. So we have to be kind of careful about protecting people and really respectful of their choices, whatever they feel safe. In doing and just really kind of supporting them in that and doing our best to not not be part of the judgment problem, right? Not be part of the shaming. I really appreciate that. And I think that, understanding that other people get to share what they want to share and that they are not obligated. You're not entitled to know about their structure and, what it is that they do. I think we struggle with that. We struggle with letting people make choices that they think are best for them. And, Seem to want to pass lots of laws and shit about that. That's probably a different podcast episode, but curious, right? I think that's the other piece. It's just like, yeah, that's true. How things work and tell me all about it, but that's, like years of, undoing the judgment and more just like, I'm so curious. Like, tell me how this thing works. Tell me about how your life. Works for you, but at the same time, we are not entitled to that just like no one necessarily is entitled to know how I do my life. We get to share that. And I think that's the gift of if we feel safe sharing that, whether it's with family, with our kids, I do think that there's something really beautiful about being able to be vulnerable with our friends and with our family. But I think there's a lot there. That's such a nuanced thing. I know my family was pretty accepting, but they definitely had questions. And still do. And sometimes I'm open to answering them, and sometimes I'm not. So again, it's so nuanced. And again, we get to choose. We get to choose literally so much. There's so much that's out of our control. There's a lot that's within our control. We get to embody the shit out of that with the things that are within our control. Yeah, and I think that just goes back to, we've been talking a lot about communication, you also have to have The the fortitude to say, I am not talking about that. This is not something that I am open to discussing because when I look at it through, a people pleasing lens, we are so used to trying to get other people's buy in by over explaining by giving all our reasons by presenting our well researched. argument. And what we're hoping for is somebody to nod their head and say, yes, I approve. And to know that sometimes we're just not going to get that. And also we don't need it. And they're not entitled to it. I think even just goes. To this point of being able to be really clear in your communication about what is open for discussion, what is not, what I will share and what I won't and with whom. So I really appreciate that. What is it that you both wish people knew or understood better than they might about? Alternative relationship structures, non monogamy. Laura, why don't you go first? So I think for me, I did not realize how a large portion of human history we appear to be much more non monogamous than we have been led to believe. So there's a great book called Sex at Dawn. I recommend everybody take a look at it, whether you are interested in non monogamy or not. I think that it really debunks a lot of the cultural assumptions of the last few hundred years that humans have been monogamous. So we are not by any means a monogamous species. It's very natural if you have non monogamy leanings and most, small groups of humans early on in the many millennia of our evolution that we lived in small groups were practicing group sex and, there was a lot of queer sex. There was just a lot more variety on the table than we have been led to believe by modern religions. So I think that's something that I really. want people to understand that this is not some sort of like strange, like, fringe behavior. And a lot of people feel really like it's actually kind of coming home to their humanity and it can actually increase our ability to love each other and love our partners. There is a particular type of love, that is secure enough To whether non monogamy and we're not relying on an external structure to tell us we're going to stay together or to give us the illusion that we're going to stay together. We're actually choosing on a day to day basis and very well informed and with other options. Right? I think it can actually be a really powerful connector. And really, really deep in a relationship. I love that. I love this idea that with other options that are on the table that we both know about, I am still choosing you to be in a relationship with. I think that's really beautiful and powerful. Ali, what about you? What do you wish people knew or understood? A couple of things. One of the things that came to mind as Laura was talking was there's so many stigmas, right? So one of them is people will often say, well, people that are, non monogamous probably have like so many more STIs. The reality is we practice so much. Let's just say, I know for me, practice so much more consent. And communication and sharing vulnerably and getting tested regularly that the stats show that like are way lower and non monogamous structures and people that are non monogamous than monogamy because of the, occurrences of infidelity and cheating and not knowing how to actually have those conversations. And so I think. Understanding that so much of what we might hear is actually not true. I think the next thing is like, there are just so many different ways, right? Like I started talking, about the spectrum, but I think it's like, we can hold Paradoxes and I think that that's just a really beautiful thing is like, and actually there's a book that I love called polyamory paradox. It's been really helpful for me of understanding, I want this thing. And also, I feel like my nervous system is like, I feel like I'm going to die inside, right? Because I think it brings up so much and pushing so much of what creates comfort and safety for us. And so in terms of the paradoxes, I know for me, I want to be a really important to someone. I also really value my own autonomy and wanting to co create. What exactly relationship I want. And so I want people to understand that. It's not just if you're just monogamous, then you do this thing. And if you're non monogamous, then you do this. It's like, there's so, so much of just a range. And I want people to understand that, It's kind of like an invitation to get out of the black or white and to open up to the liminal space of there's so much that we're missing out because we kind of have this lens of how things are supposed to be. And the reality is like, there's a whole ass world out here. So much. I think the other thing that I, really think of is when I decided to first explore non monogamy. I had this idea, of how it would go and how things would be and what I've actually found is like my friendships are so much more important and intimate than I ever had before I was non monogamous and so for me, it's been less about the romantic relationships. It's been more about finding people that really understand me that I really understand them. And, almost like having like multiple lifelong connections that I didn't actually have or felt comfortable doing before, because I think there was so much around again, my own sexuality, how I was raised. And so I have become so much more of I guess just like this romantic, like friendship person where I just want to have the best relationships with my Friends and it's really helped just again taking that romantic relationship off of the pedestal and opening up to like all of the other connections that are around that are so beautiful and rich and intimate that aren't even sexual like that that's actually like not a piece that we have to have and like it's just very freeing. That's probably my favorite thing that you've said, Allie, is, taking that romantic relationship off the pedestal, not because it's not great, but because it obscures the greatness and the beauty of other potential connection and relationships, especially friendships. And I really appreciate that you have said that, because I think. We've just been fed the thing that getting married and having a romantic primary partner is the thing that makes you, what legit arrived. I don't know. It's happy. Yeah. I'll be most successful. Totally. Most of the things. And like, yes. Not true. Yeah. Is there anything that I didn't ask you about that you just want to make sure that you say or add to this conversation as we kind of wrap it up here? I do think that we might want to just populate the menu just a tiny bit for people. if that feels good. And we have a moment to do that. I don't think we have to go into exhaustive detail, but you know, alleys. Referred to it a few times. I've maybe mentioned it once, but there are a lot of different types of structures and there's some terminology, but, you know, lingo and jargon and blah, blah, blah. You don't have to know all that stuff. But, in a nutshell, right? You have everything from say, a monogamous couple that decides to have periodic flings with another couple or another individual, right? Okay, you're practicing some consensual non monogamy. You have decided together that you are going to have some sort of sexual experience with somebody else. Right, and it may be that you only ever quote unquote play together, right? You're only ever playing together. Then there's partners who might be primary partner, but they're playing separately with other people within whatever structure feels good to them. And that can be revoked at different times. Like they can revise that decision. It can be more sexual or less sexual or more romantic or less romantic, right? Connections. It can be. Maybe some sexy snuggles or something is okay, but other stuff isn't, right? You always get to choose what's on the table. Then you have people who are in quote unquote relationship anarchy, where they believe in really having each individual relationship in your life. Negotiated kind of consistently between those people and no other expectations from other partners, right? You can have sort of pure polyamory where you're actually having very loving relationships and potentially long term relationships with multiple people. But it can be everywhere in between that too, right? There could be all kinds of different sort of your own flavor. This is definitely the kind of ice cream that you just like, Take whatever ingredients you want and mix it together yourself and just make sure that everybody is in agreement or at least honest about it. Your partners don't always have to particularly love your choices. Consent doesn't necessarily mean that everybody has the same amount of enthusiasm for everything, but they're at least aware of what you're choosing, right? So I just wanted to throw out a couple of those, and I didn't even get into all the weeds, and Ali, you might want to throw in a few more, but I did want to just let people know that, it's not sort of like the monogamous structure where you have a harem or something. It's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of other options. I appreciate that you said that, Laura, because I'm throwing people at the mercy of Google here, right, to go do some, some learning and researching, but I, I really appreciate kind of the general overview that you, that you gave there. Allie, what, what would you, want to add to the conversation? Yeah, I think the thing that I want to add is just this idea that I think is so important to debunk, which is this idea of zero sum, right? So often we have just fed this narrative, this story that there's a limited resource of any one thing. And I think that really. Ties into the society that we're in this capitalist means of production, the more we produce then the scarcity of like, and there's only so much. And so I think it's just helpful for people to understand that, there's an unlimited resource of love that we have because so much of what scares people when they think about opening up is like, but what about, what about me? Like, well, you still love me. Is there enough room for me? I really struggled with this too, especially because of my own childhood with, just abandonment and not having the kind of love and care that I needed. Everything became very scarce. So not only love, but also food was like, I'll just take it when I can get it. And so it's been this really big shift of opening up to like, there's not a limited resource of love. There might be a limited resource of time. There might be a limited resource of how much we can give to any one thing. But that if there is actually more love to go around and actually if we're not just hoarding it or just waiting, just wanting to give it to one person, like if it's actually free to share with our friends, with our kids, kind of with the world, like just offers this a different way to look at the world, just a little bit. I love that. If people are interested in finding more about you and the work you do, where would they find that? Laura, you go first and then Ellie. Sure. So I'm really easy. My website is my name, Laura Juergens, L A U R A J U R G E N S. com. And they can also find me at my podcast, which is Sex Help for Smart People. And you can find that Anywhere you find podcasts or on my website with the backslash podcast. Awesome, Allie. Love it. Yeah. I'm also very easy to find. Everything is my name, Allie Ryan Coaching, A L I R Y A N. My website, AllieRyanCoaching. com and then Instagram is also Allie underscore Ryan underscore coaching. We'll have all those links in the notes. I just, I want people to be able to find the external support if they need that, and I'm just really grateful for each of you for sharing what you know, and your thoughts, obviously it's limited by, who we are and the identities that we have today, but I, just offer it to this audience with the hope that they will understand that they can choose intentionally. The kinds of relationships that they want and the way they want to move through this world in those relationships. So I appreciate you helping me do that today. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Sarah. Thank you so much for having us. This is great. This was fun. Okay. This is my first podcast PS ever, but we were talking after I ended the recording and the beautiful ideas did not stop coming. And the one that I really wanted to add as the PS to this one was brought up. In our discussion around not just dethroning like romantic relationships, but hanging your hat, Laura, I think what is what you said on 1 person being able to meet all of our needs and how that stresses relationships as well. And so when we're talking about. The beautiful buffet of relationships that is available, it's not just multiple romantic relationships. But the richness in getting our needs met by lots of different relationships. So, Laura, can you kind of recap what you, what you said, or? In particular for monogamous relationships, because there's this sort of expectation as part of this relationship escalator that Allie mentioned earlier. that we become sort of everything to each other and it can become really isolating. And I actually see this even impacting men even more and also impacting a lot of people during COVID, during the pandemic. Where women are often making more friendships and closer emotional friendships and connections, and sometimes this in heterosexual relationships can be really challenging with men as they get older, kind of hanging all of their emotional needs on their partners, but it is more important than in any other way. I think ever for us to really have that sort of village of people and village of connections and really get to be who we are with different people, different people bring out different parts of us. So we want to be the full version of ourselves. We need to find close, intimate connections. And by intimate, I mean, emotionally intimate connections where we're really feeling understood and kind of like. Open with somebody where we can be really honest with them. And oftentimes that's in different ways, right? So that we have other people. We're not putting all the pressure on our spouse or our monogamy partner, or even our primary partner, even if we're in a non monogamy setting. Cause that is just a lot of pressure for one person to meet all of our emotional needs, as well as be the person who we share, a house with and kids with and. Like finances with and, at like vacations and all that stuff. And then they're also meeting every single emotional need. That's just a lot. It's like, not very fair. Allie, what would you add to that? You know, it makes me think of the way that my co parent and I have been able to evolve our relationship offline. Just before we added the PS, we talked a little bit about conscious uncoupling and we on accident did that where it was like, we really love each other. We are really good at raising kids, but there's these other aspects that don't work very much. And so what we've done over the past seven years is really created a deep friendship. Where we are still really good friends. We still share music. We share great ideas and humor and raise kids together. And actually he's remarried and they have a kid. And during COVID, it wasn't on purpose, but we started celebrating Mother's Day together and birthdays and dinners and barbecues because we Didn't have a lot of other folks than ourselves at the time. And so I think, there's no such thing as like, if a relationship isn't working, then it fails. It just can evolve. There can be more chapters without causing, great harm or devastation. We just get to actually take on what works from this and what do we need to let go? And that's something that I've gotten really good at doing with non monogamy too, so this is great. This one doesn't right. And that's because We get to decide and pick and choose kind of like that ice cream buffet that that Laura mentioned of like, these are the really beautiful conversations that we get to have in friendships and relationships with other people where it's not just black or white on off in love. Hey, you like, it's like, there's so much and things can evolve and shift and change because that's who we are as humans and normalizing that is so huge. That's my that's my PS. So P. S. Emotionally intimate relationships meet multiple needs and I love what you said, Ellie. There can be more chapters. Thanks again to both of you.