Episode 85 - Why Feminism Still Matters

On my recent trip to Bolivia, I had an interaction that reignited my thoughts on feminism. In this episode, I explore why feminism remains a vital lens for understanding our world and shaping our actions. Here's what I cover:

• How my journey with feminism started with negative perceptions because of my upbringing in the Mormon Church
• Why feminism is important for EVERYONE, not just women
• How We Should All Be Feminists by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie opened my eyes to the broader implications of gender equality
• The story of when I spoke up to advocate for women during my trip
• Why we still have work to do when it comes to feminism being inclusive

I can't wait for you to listen!

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Transcript

You are listening to the Ex-Good Girl Podcast episode 85.

00:56

So a few weeks ago I did an episode about a recent trip to Bolivia that I went on as a participant in a nonprofit organization that I started with some of the women who served a Mormon mission with me way back in 1995 through '97.

01:16

It's episode 79 if you want to take a listen.

01:18

But I've been continuing to think about a particular interaction that we had on that trip and how it relates to why I do what I do today.

01:31

And I want to share it with you.

01:33

I think it's important because what I want to explore is this idea with you that feminism still matters.

01:43

It still very much is a part of the lens and the thinking that we need to be looking through in our world today.

01:54

My own journey with feminism starts… I don't know. I don't even remember when I first heard the word but when it became clear to me that it was bad was when I was still a practicing member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the Mormons at BYU.

02:13

And one of the church leaders said in 1993 I had been at BYU for just maybe two years he said that there were some invasions happening from the world into the church threats to the church.

02:30

And they were the gay and lesbian movement, the feminist movement and then challenges from scholars and intellectuals.

02:40

And so at that time in my 19-year-old brain it was really seared into it that feminism was bad.

02:52

Feminism was not what God wanted.

02:54

Feminism was against what the church taught.

02:58

And that really became the lens that I looked through for decades and decades.

03:03

And it's so interesting because I got married to my husband and I fulfilled really gender-based roles.

03:10

He went and worked and I stayed home and took care of our kids.

03:16

And then someone gave me the book We Should All Be Feminists by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie and I read it.

03:28

And I remember turning the pages and just being enthralled with what a powerful book it was.

03:40

She was laying out the need for gender equality and feminism as a means to achieve it.

03:49

She talked about feminism not just about women's rights but also just about creating a more just and balanced society for all people regardless of gender.

04:03

And at that time my husband and I were having some conversations about how hard it was for him to go and work all day about the lack of connection and the lack of time he felt with our kids and how I felt really stifled sometimes at home where you know sometimes I didn't see another adult except my husband except for a couple times a week and how we had just begun to look at these roles that we were playing with a little bit of curiosity about how we had gotten there and why even in the midst of being told that we were supposed to be so happy and fulfilled in these roles we were we were struggling.

04:46

And so that book came along and I could really see her point.

04:52

Gender equality isn't just a women's issue it affects men as well.

04:58

There are these social expectations and gender roles that limit us both.

05:04

And what feminism seeks to do is actually dismantle those roles and those constraints and give people a choice.

05:13

Give men a choice to stay home if they want to care for and nurture children.

05:19

It really debunks this whole idea that we are innately suited for one or the other.

05:26

Some people might think they are and that's fine.

05:27

I'm not trying to argue that that never happens.

05:30

I actually felt really suited to having and nurturing and staying home with kids for a little while but it wasn't all that I wanted to do.

05:40

One of the most important things that that book and Adichie pointed out was that I was raising my boys to be boys and my girl to be a girl and I didn't even know it.

05:51

that I was enforcing these kind of stereotypical gender-based expectations on my two-year-old.

06:00

And I didn't even realize that that's what I was doing.

06:05

Adichie advocates for a society just where people are free to express themselves.

06:12

So that was the first really big thing.

06:15

And it helped kind of to normalize the word feminist for me in a way that I could claim it without fear and without hesitation.

06:26

And I could begin to explore feminism as not this extreme ideology, this threat that I had been taught that it was but simply a belief in choice and equality.

06:40

And it was really really important for me.

06:45

The other themes that kind of happened along the way I just began to see how so many of my friends and neighbors and people that I knew were really locked into these roles without ever even having thought of different roles for themselves.

07:04

I began to see women taking on the majority of unpaid domestic work and emotional labor in relationships and households. I began to see how in media representation it really was women who were underrepresented in roles of power and influence and women were misrepresented.

07:30

And that was true from movies to magazines and newspaper articles and that feminism actually wanted to ensure a more diverse and accurate portrayal of women's lives and experiences and strengths and abilities in the media so that as women we could see that in ourselves.

07:53

This was really kind of like an unfurling for me of the cultural norms and stereotypes that had just kind of been the wallpaper.

08:03

I saw how gender stereotypes had really dictated what was quote unquote acceptable for women and acceptable for men in everything from the type of career choice that they made if they chose a career to personal expression to the clothes that they could wear to the type of hobbies that they could enjoy to the type of friends that they could have.

08:28

And it was just so interesting because once I saw how dictated by gender norms and stereotypes my life had been it was really hard to unsee it.

08:43

I also saw how women were expected to work to give to sacrifice and that all of that was sometimes unpaid in the workplace, in the home, in community organizations.

09:00

They were the backbone of the volunteer organizations and how they were expected to be paid in the respect of their peers or in the kind words that other people had to say to them.

09:16

And that's what brings me to my story about Bolivia.

09:21

So one of our projects was a group of community health workers who are women they are trained to ask basic medical questions to do kind of a basic medical intake in indigenous communities that are far enough away from city centers and hospitals that a lot of the women that they visit have never had a medical checkup have never had a well woman exam have never had a pap smear have never had a breast exam for cancer or any type of other treatable disease.

10:01

And these community health workers were the backbone of this really amazing organization.

10:10

We met with them and they were telling us about the work that they do and we were kind of forming the foundation of a partnership because we wanted to be able to help.

10:21

And as I listened to the women explain how much time they give this was hours and hours a week in travel and in time time away from their families.

10:32

And so I asked what they were paid.

10:36

And I wish I had a little video recording of the looks of the people in the room because the women just kind of looked at each other.

10:44

And then the leaders of the organization one was a woman and one was a man.

10:48

The man spoke up and said oh they are paid in the respect of their communities.

10:56

They are paid by the prestige of their positions.

11:00

They are paid by the respect and awe of their children.

11:05

When they go out to work in these communities their children really see this amazing opportunity that their mothers have to be these health workers.

11:15

You can see where I'm going with this right?

11:18

And I said Is there anything else that they're given?

11:21

And then the female leader of the organization she says “Well they are given a cell phone card and they use that cell phone card to do the intake forms when they're out in these really far-flung communities.”

11:35

And I said but they need that cell phone card to do their job, right?

11:38

So that's not that's not really for them.

11:40

And she said well if there's any extra minutes on the card though they get to use that for themselves.

11:46

I looked around the room and all of the community workers' heads were kind of nodding up and down as if the hours and hours of work that they donated as volunteers was worth some leftover cell phone minutes.

12:01

And just because part of what I am committed to is raising the awareness of the value of women, of our work, of our labor, of our brain space, of our time I just couldn't let it go.

12:17

And so I said I want to make something clear.

12:20

We think this is a fantastic organization and we're so grateful for the opportunity to meet with you and to discuss how we might be helpful.

12:29

But we are not comfortable partnering with an organization where it is OK to pay women in respect and admiration.

12:40

That's not sustainable and it's not the type of program that we want to be a part of.

12:47

There was a little silence as everyone kind of looked around at each other because I don't know that it had ever crossed their minds that these women's talents, their time, their brain space, their energy, their resources were worthy of something other than respect and admiration.

13:09

And so the male leader present you know kind of launched into an explanation of why it was very difficult in Bolivia to pay women because of labor laws and employment laws.

13:22

And he had a point.

13:23

There are some really restrictive laws in place in Bolivia around hiring and firing.

13:29

And so I said oh I totally understand.

13:32

And it might not be that employment is going to be the way that these women are compensated but how else could they be compensated?

13:41

Silence.

13:43

And I said “Could they be given food?”

13:46

Could they be given transportation costs?

13:48

Could they be paid in-kind goods and services?

13:53

Could we establish a scholarship fund so that some of these women who have expressed interest in going on to train to become actual nurses who could then go back and actually do the exams and not just prepare the Indigenous women to receive the exams so that they could accomplish that?

14:13

I said because when it comes down to actually changing someone's life respect and admiration will not do that.

14:21

And if these women, if what you tell me is true that the children of these women see their mothers doing this fantastic work if they're being paid in respect and admiration that is not actually going to make any difference for them.

14:36

And all that we're doing is infusing them with this dream of becoming a nurse or becoming some kind of paid medical provider that they can't reach.

14:48

So how are we gonna work together on this?

14:51

And I sensed the discomfort of some of the people in the room at my pointed remarks but I just can't not say it because when I look around at those women what matters to me is their time and their energy and their effortAnd their life this is like the stuff that their life is made of.

15:15

And so we agreed to settle on a brainstorming session for a possible scholarship fund that they would match that we would participate in because we are not paying women any more in respect and admiration.

15:34

So if you are in a place where you are being quote unquote paid for your time in respect and admiration when it's really something else that you need that would make a difference for you that would make your dreams accessible it's time to ask.

15:54

Feminism still matters because there is still a huge gender pay gap.

16:03

Women still earn less than men for doing the same work.

16:09

And that gender pay gap gets worse if you are a woman of color and you earn significantly less than your white female counterparts and your male counterparts.

16:23

Women are still really underrepresented in leadership roles in politics in business in the media.

16:31

It has been so interesting for me to follow this political season because of the excitement around Kamala Harris as a female political candidate.

16:44

I was talking about it with my husband and I think that it's fair to have questions about the qualifications of either candidate.

16:51

But when I was talking with him I said Honey, can you understand what it's like for me and for women all over?

16:58

To see a female presidential candidate that is smart, funny, kind , and beautiful is articulate even if you're not going to vote for her.

17:12

It does something to women and girls to see themselves represented in leadership.

17:20

Feminism still matters because we don't have the same access to reproductive health care contraception and abortion that we had even a few years ago.

17:36

It's wild to me that I had more rights than my daughter does.

17:41

And whether or not abortion matters to you personally, it is health care for so many of our female sisters who have a baby that is not viable that needs to be removed so that they do not pay the price so that they don't die or get sick or are damaged have their reproductive organs damaged.

18:08

Abortion is healthcare.

18:11

Feminism still matters because violence against women it's still happening.

18:18

Domestic violence sexual harassment assault remains a widespread issue.

18:25

In Bolivia femicide the killing of women is at the highest rate in any South American country.

18:37

You have instances of gender-based violence all over the globe.

18:43

It was crushing to read about Rebecca Chiptegithe, a Ugandan Olympian who competed in Paris who went home to be killed by her boyfriend.

18:56

Feminism still matters because violence against women is still a problem.

19:04

Feminism still matters because we're just kind of barely getting into a real intersectional feminism.

19:12

White feminism has failed.

19:15

White feminism sought to make things better for white women and left behind a lot of the challenges faced by women of different races, ethnicities, sexual orientations and socioeconomic backgrounds.

19:30

And feminism matters because it must be for all women, not just a few.

19:36

And I think we're just kind of getting into a stride with real intersectional feminism.

19:43

And actually that might be overstating it a little bit.

19:46

But for feminism to really work it has to work for everyone.

19:52

It has to work for the rights of LGBTQ+ individuals transgender women non-binary people who face discrimination and violence everywhere they turn.

20:03

It has to be something that is inclusive and equal for all regardless of gender identity sexual orientation, we still have so far to go.

20:16

So if I could go back and tell my 19-year-old self about feminism, I would have told her the church is scared of feminism because it is scared of women who want the same rights and privileges and opportunities as men.

20:36

And I get that.

20:38

Something is only special if you can have it for yourself.

20:41

And so something like, whether it's priesthood in the Mormon church, whether it's the right to rule and govern in different governments and societies, whether it's the right to be paid more in offices and businesses around the world.

20:59

Yeah, I get it.

21:00

I get why men are threatened by feminism, but I think what they don't understand is that it will free all of us.

21:09

It will free all of us to have the choices and the opportunities to do what we really want.

21:15

It will free women to be equal partners and participants in everything from how homes run, to how businesses run, to how governments run.

21:25

Feminism still matters.

21:28

It's essential in the ongoing struggle, not just for justice, but for equality in every aspect of society.