Episode 90 - Why I Love Wicked and You Should Too

In this episode, you’ll get a glimpse into my musical-loving heart as I discuss the feminist themes of the movie, Wicked, and moments in the film that took me back to a time when I had to realize a hard truth. Here’s what I cover:

• Why we all deserve to have beliefs consistent with having autonomy and being able to find what we like and what we want to do
• How the song “Defying Gravity” helped me through a challenging time in my life
• Why the realization that something that provides goodness and safety is actually doing us harm is a shared experience for many
• Each of us is worthy of being in relationships, friendships, and careers that do not exist inside circumstances that require us to ignore part of what is going on in order to be happy
• An important truth about people pleasing and gender equality is illuminated in an essay by Celeste Davis

I can't wait for you to listen.

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Transcript

You are listening to the Ex-Good Girl Podcast, episode 90.

00:05

OK, today you get a little peek or a big peek inside my earnest, nerdy, musical loving heart.

00:16

Because I really want to talk about the movie Wicked.

00:19

I saw it a couple of days ago.

00:22

And if you've never seen the play and you haven't seen the movie yet, there are going to be spoilers.

00:26

So go watch the movie first and then come back.

00:30

Oh, it was such an incredible experience and it brought back so many memories because when I left the Mormon church in those first few days and months and ah I listened to three songs on repeat, probably daily, multiple times a day.

00:50

Into the Unknown.

00:53

My favorite version is the Panic at the Disco.

00:55

Go look it up.

00:55

It's great.

00:57

Landslide by Fleetwood Mac.

00:59

I would just sit in my car and just cry.

01:04

And Defying Gravity from the musical Wicked.

01:08

And it's been a little while since I listened to it.

01:11

And as I was sitting there in the movie theater seat, first of all, if you have seen it, you know that there are so many just feminist themes throughout the movie claiming autonomy in a system that wants you to obey instead.

01:34

The power of female friendship, the way that evil is good and good is evil, and the way that the, you know, the wicked girl is really the one who is the good girl.

01:50

The way that Elphaba has to overcome you know, fear of judgment and and give up what she thinks she wants for what she really wants.

02:01

And just even the way that, you know, Elphaba is labeled as wicked.

02:05

And those are some, you know, really important themes.

02:09

But the one that was so clear to me is what I want to tell you a story about.

02:17

In November, 2015, I had just had surgery, I think a shoulder surgery, and I got a text from my sister.

02:26

Now, by this time, I had been active in the Mormon church since I was born.

02:34

You know, I was 40, 41.

02:36

My sister sent me a text that said that she had read a news article saying that the church had released a new policy saying that same-sex couples are now considered apostate.

02:58

And apostate in the Mormon church means like someone who has turned against the truth and is like actively fighting against it.

03:07

Like it's it's like an enemy and that they were now going to consider LGBTQ people apostates and that their children could no longer be baptized.

03:21

I texted back and I said, “There's no way this is true.”

03:24

There's no way that this is true.

03:29

I'm going to look into it.

03:31

And so I dragged myself over to the computer.

03:34

I was still really sore.

03:37

And I remember getting on and just searching and searching and searching.

03:43

And it was true.

03:47

It was true, the church, and it actually was a leak.

03:51

Someone inside the place where they update this handbook of instructions for church leaders had leaked this new policy.

04:03

They weren't even gonna say anything about it.

04:05

They were just gonna like slide it in the back door, print it in some handbook, and then start enforcing it.

04:12

But the key points were that they were changing that definition of apostasy to include people who were LGBTQ.

04:23

They also were going to restrict children in same-gender relationships from being baptized and receiving blessings as a baby, which is another thing that happens in Mormon land.

04:37

And they were not going to allow them to be baptized until they were 18 if they disavowed same-gender marriage and did not live in the same home as their same-gender married parent, and they had to get special approval.

04:58

And I remember being at the computer and just this icy, sinking, heavy feeling coming over me as I realized it's true.

05:16

And all of the implications of that and all of just the weight that this type of punishment and exclusion and discipline for being who they were was going to now fall on many people that I knew and loved and their children.

05:42

So I'm sitting in the movie theater.

05:47

And there is a moment that I had just kind of forgotten about when Elphaba realizes that Oz is the wizard who is the one who's hurting the animals causing them to lose their power of speech.

06:10

And she sees it.

06:11

And the look on her face when she realizes that the person who she thought was keeping everybody safe, the person who she thought was the goodness in the world, was actually the one causing the harm.

06:33

That's the moment that I just, I lost it.

06:37

Because I remembered so keenly realizing that this thing that I thought was providing the goodness in my life, the certainty that I was doing what was right, that God was happy with me, that I just thought I was gonna be doing forever, the thing that worked really, I mean, so well for me, up until it started hurting people that I loved, it was the one doing the harm.

07:10

And just the way in which I had to feel that, and then once I saw it, I couldn't unsee it.

07:22

And so I know that there are so many of us that are in things like that, a job, a relationship, a belief, a habit that you believe is providing goodness and safety and something wonderful, but then you see a side of it and realize, oh, it's actually doing harm.

07:47

And that doesn't mean you have to leave it.

07:48

Like I left the church and Elphaba you know leaves Oz.

07:52

That's not the comparison.

07:54

The comparison is each of us deserves to be in relationships, jobs, in friendships, and have beliefs that are consistent with having autonomy, being able to challenge beliefs, being able to find what we like and what we want to do, and to not exist inside situations or systems or circumstances that require us to not see part of what is going on in order to be happy.

08:30

I listened to an amazing little Substack essay by a woman named Celeste Davis, and I'm gonna link it in the show notes.

08:38

And she talked about some early work that was done around the emotional and mental load that mostly women bear in their homes.

08:50

And this was done back in the '70s when all of this research about this mental load was beginning to come to light.

09:00

And one of the subjects in a research study was named Nancy.

09:05

And Nancy and her husband were the subject of the study of like, really, who does more in your home and how does it affect them?

09:15

And what was interesting about Nancy and her husband was that they both wanted to have an equal marriage, an equal partnership in their marriage, where they shared the load, and her husband, whose name I can't quite remember right now, he considered himself a feminist, somebody who wanted to have this type of equality.

09:38

And so the researcher followed them around and met with them for years, years and years.

09:46

And in the beginning, her husband put up a-- he tried but he never got into the actual habit and belief of doing half of the work.

10:02

And they didn't want to get divorced.

10:05

And so what Nancy ended up having to do was change her definition of equal.

10:14

They lived in a two-story house, the garage and where the dog slept was on the bottom floor, and the rest of the house was upstairs.

10:24

And so, in Nancy's definition of equal that she had to create to stay inside this marriage, her husband took care of the downstairs and she took care of the upstairs, and that was equal.

10:38

And in this essay, Celeste talks about how every once in a while, Nancy's resentment and rage would bubble over, and then she'd have to stuff it back down because she wanted to stay in her marriage.

10:52

And so there were things that she could not allow herself to see.

10:58

There were parts of her existence, parts of her experience that she had to pretend were not happening so that she could stay in the relationship.

11:08

When we are younger, when we're little and we need the care of adults, this is what kids do.

11:15

And it's important for survival.

11:18

And so we learn this skill young, to not see, to not name, to not put into words, to not say out loud the things that are hurting us, the things that are keeping us small, the things that are abusive, the things that are neglectful, the things that are mean, the things that are not fair, so that we can get the care we need when we're younger, but it becomes this habit that we carry with us into adulthood in this way.

11:54

And I have so much compassion for it because truthfully, I look back sometimes at my Mormon self and I have to remember that I was a different person because sometimes I think, “How did you not see that sooner?”

12:10

How did you not know?

12:11

And then I rememberI just, I didn't.

12:17

It was everything that I had been taught to be and do and see and not see and believe and not believe.

12:26

When the musical Wicked first came out, I was uncomfortable with the title of the musical.

12:33

That's how, you know, Mormon I was.

12:36

When I wanted to start a podcast, even after leaving the church, this is gonna make you laugh.

12:42

I thought of the name ex-good girl, and I thought it was so scandalous that I sat on it for a year before I was comfortable saying it out loud and identifying with it.

12:59

So each of us is wherever we are.

13:04

But here's what I want you to just consider.

13:09

If you are in situations that require you to not see things.

13:16

There is a place in the lyrics of Defying Gravity where Glinda says to Elphaba, You can still be with the wizard.

13:25

All you have to do is say you're sorry.

13:28

You can have everything you wanted.

13:31

And Elphaba says, I don't want it anymore.

13:35

Now, if you are in situations where you are the one who has to say you are sorry, when you see things, when you see the truth, when you put the truth into words, when you say it out loud, that's not for you.

13:49

Just like the church wasn't for me.

13:51

And it was terrifying to leave.

13:55

When Elphaba in the movie is learning to fly, she plunges over the side of a building and you just see her free falling.

14:03

I identify with that feeling of just not knowing what's going to happen when I'm going to land on something solid, of everything that I thought was true and good, being unmasked.

14:16

And so if you decide to question, to wonder about leaving, a situation that requires you to not see, you'll stumble, you'll fall, but you'll get up and you'll fly.

14:31

And the way that I know that is because that's where I am now.

14:38

And I feel such freedom and the ability to participate in fighting other systems that cause harm that I am in, because we live in a lot of them.

14:50

But I know that so many of the women who listen to this and who I talk to have seen some of the harm that is done in some of the situations where they're in.

15:02

And it's scary to name it.

15:04

It's scary to say this doesn't feel right.

15:08

It's scary to say something is off.

15:11

My intuition is telling me that something is off here.

15:17

And what I want you to know is you can trust that.

15:19

You can trust yourself.

15:21

And there's so many, just read through the lyrics of Defying Gravity.

15:27

If you have to make yourself small, to get love that is not for you.

15:33

I would love to hear what you think about the movie.

15:36

Send me a DM.

15:36

I could go on and on about this.

15:38

And I would love to have a conversation with anyone else who is a musical nerd like me.

15:43

But what I'll tell you is this appeals to everyone.

15:46

It is universal.

15:47

So go see it.

15:49

Have a great Thanksgiving.