Episode 100 - I've Got Some Thoughts About That: AMA with Clients

I started this podcast to contribute to the conversation around people-pleasing and perfectionism. Now, as The Ex-Good Girl Podcast reaches the 100th episode, I am extremely proud and grateful. My goal has always been to share tools, strategies, and stories to help you overcome challenges that result from good girl programming and live the life you want.

It has meant so much to hear from all of you along this journey about the skills you’ve implemented and the progress you’ve made in your lives and relationships. Today, I’m answering your questions about people-pleasing, patriarchy, and so much more. Here’s what I cover:

• How honest conversations are often confused with conflict by people pleasers who have been conditioned to fear confrontation
• Why open communication is key to maintaining an important relationship when you disagree
• The importance of setting goals you know you can accomplish to maintaining the energy to work toward positive change
• How to feel in your body whether or not it is truly your choice to please someone 
• Tips for how to talk to the men in your life about patriarchy and feminism

I can’t wait for you to listen!

Find Sara here:
https://sarafisk.coach
https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations
https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/
https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/
https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach
https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!
Book a Free Consult

Transcript

 01:00

It’s episode 100 and I am so excited. I am so proud of us, of me. When I started this podcast project, it was because I felt like I had some important things to add to the conversation around people pleasing and perfectionism. 

 01:15

I'm so proud that I have stuck with it. It has been hard some weeks, but who I'm actually more proud of is you. Because every single week I get messages and emails and DMs from people who have taken the skills and tools and strategies and stories that we have discussed through these episodes and have put them to work in their lives. 

 01:39

You have shared conversations that you never thought you'd be able to have with tricky family members around tricky subjects that you've had, that you're having, you're actually doing. You have put into effect to protect and to help your own peace and calm in these turbulent times. 

 02:00

You have told me about times that you've said no to things that really tripped you up before that were really hard to say no to in the past and that you have said yes to things that help you better take care of yourself. 

 02:14

I have heard from so many of you it means so much to me. And so what I wanted to do in this episode is answer some of the questions that you have sent to me over the last couple weeks. I have been asking clients for questions that they have and I've asked you and I have some selected that I feel the answers will be really valuable. 

 02:36

And so that's what this episode is going to be. It is my love letter back to you the listeners who make not only this such a joyful thing when you let me know how it affects you. But it actually really helps me to answer these questions and to put them into words so that they can be helpful for more people. 

 02:56

So let's jump into question number one. Question number one comes from Susan. Susan says, I'm the always the one who plans things with friends. And I'm afraid that if I don't do it, no one will reach out and plan something with me. 

 03:12

I can't decide if it bothers me or not, or if it's no big deal. Sometimes it feels like it's a bit of both, but I don't know what to do. So, Susan, this is such a common thing that we go through when we're trying to maintain relationships or create new relationships. 

 03:32

And I hear in your question, just some self doubt that you're having about how this feels for you. So I want you to just if you are like Susan, and you have relationships where you feel like it's not reciprocated the way you would like it to be, or it's not the effort doesn't seem equal. 

 03:50

I want you to just take a second and let yourself feel that it doesn't mean you're going to stay here. But so often we fear feelings like the frustration, or perhaps resentment, or perhaps the hurt or sadness, Susan, that you might be feeling in recognizing that you are usually the one who reaches out to friends. 

 04:14

So I want to start with just letting you feel it for a second, because our feelings have important information. And whatever it is, when you think about what you would like a friendship to be like, versus how it actually is, if it's sadness, is it okay to be sad? 

 04:37

If it's frustration, is that okay for just a second to acknowledge that what you're feeling is frustration? A lot of times, parts of us that are worried about what will happen if we allow ourselves to feel sad or to feel frustrated, pipe up and they kind of want to talk us out of those feelings that you're making a big deal out of this So dramatic, why are you so needy? 

 05:01

You shouldn't feel like this because those parts are afraid that if we feel the sadness or the frustration, it's going to have an undesired result. So then let's just be honest about what that result might be. 

 05:16

If you check in with the parts of you that are trying to not let you feel some of the feelings that you're hinting at here, like you said, I can't decide if it bothers me or not, or if it's no big deal, what would happen if it was a big deal? 

 05:31

What would happen if this actually did bother you? Maybe you would be kind of prodded to have a conversation about it. And it's so normal to worry, especially when you're a people pleaser, that I'm going to say something that the other person isn't going to like, or it's going to somehow affect our friendship and I'm going to feel bad. 

 05:54

Well, what I want to point out is that you're already feeling bad. even if it's in a way that doesn't feel very well defined. So this is where you get to decide. Every relationship progresses through honest, vulnerable conversation. 

 06:11

I'll say it again, every relationship progresses, or the opportunity to progress is presented when there is conflict or when there is something that needs to be talked about. So you get to decide. If you want to keep the relationship at the current level, where you are feeling kind of bad about the fact that there's not a lot of reciprocation and planning, and you can figure out how to feel okay about that if you want to. 

 06:42

You can decide that it doesn't matter. You can decide that it's okay with you that there are extenuating circumstances where it doesn't bother you. But I'm guessing just from the little bit that you said that that would not feel totally honest for you. 

 06:57

But you can decide to do that. The other thing you can decide is that it is worth pushing the feeling that I'm having into some of the worry that I have, the issue that I have, and bringing it up to see if it is a place where we can deepen our sense of connectedness and our sense of intimacy with each other in this friendship. 

 07:22

And here's what it might sound like. You might decide to say something like, you know what, it seems to me that if we plan something together, I am usually the one who is kind of spurring that on or making it happen. 

 07:38

And I wonder what you thought about that. Opening it up to a conversation is the way to test whether or not that relationship can take a more vulnerable, more connected step through working something out. 

 07:57

People pleasers are really taught to fear conflict, and to back away from it to not make anyone uncomfortable. And what that has the effect of doing is keeping so many of our relationships on the surface. 

 08:11

Because the other person doesn't actually know how we feel, doesn't actually know our true opinion about things, because we're just trying to present the pleasing ones or the personality that we think they would like. 

 08:26

So this fear of conflict actually keeps our relationships very thin and very surface and very brittle. So you get to decide, Susan, if you want to take the step into more vulnerability, it is always through the doorway of what feels like conflict. 

 08:50

But it's actually really just telling the truth. So the decision is yours. My guess is you are not wrong, but having a conversation will give you the opportunity to express how you're feeling and to listen to the perspective of this other person. 

 09:11

And then both of you together can decide, what do we want to do about it? And that is the way to deeper, more meaningful relationships. Question number two, this is from anonymous like you. I grew up in a conservative Christian religion and so did my husband. 

 09:28

We have three kids who have been raised in the church, and we all decided to leave about a year and a half ago. I have found that even though we have left the church, my husband and even my kids are pushing back on some changes that I want to make. 

 09:41

I want to feel stronger in myself and more secure. I want to go back to school and my husband doesn't want to spend the money. I want to wear clothes that are considered more revealing than what they're used to. 

 09:51

And even my daughter is pushing back. What advice do you have? Oh, anonymous. I'm just giving you a big hug because just because you leave the institution that is actively teaching you about religious gender roles doesn't mean that that programming is gone. 

 10:19

And oftentimes when people leave the structure of an organization and the structure is what, you know, kind of called the shots week to week. You have meetings to go to. You have church service to do. 

 10:34

Sometimes that structure is comforting in a way. And when you leave the structure, what you hang on to are the beliefs because they feel comforting. They feel familiar and a couple of things that I just want to point out. 

 10:53

First of all, you are not in charge of changing everyone else's mind so that they will agree with what you do and give you permission. This is a really nuanced conversation because while that is true, it is also true that it sounds like, at least for the time being, you want to keep these relationships with your husband and children. 

 11:24

So that's where the tension is. The tension is you're not in charge of making them feel better about what you want to do and you can have an influence on them by keeping the lines of communication open, by asking them to tell you about why they feel uncomfortable, by asking for them to listen to your point of view. 

 11:48

So you kind of have to hold both of those pieces. It's not your job to make them feel comfortable about your decisions and you can have an influence. And I would say that in loving connected relationships, it is your job to do things to help maintain and deepen the vulnerability in your communication with them. 

 12:11

So I mentioned a few things. I'm just going to say them again. Number one, being willing to ask them to tell you, hey, I am wanting to wear this outfit. I have it on. And daughter, I can tell that it makes you uncomfortable. 

 12:27

Can we talk about that? Can you tell me what it is that bothers you about this? And are you willing to hear my point of view? Willingness to hear your point of view is going to be essential for them to change their minds. 

 12:46

And sometimes people aren't willing. It's too scary. It's too much. It's too big. It's too dangerous. And that's okay. If they are not willing, if you go to husband and he says, I don't want to spend the money on school, right? 

 13:03

I don't want to dedicate the resources for you to be able to go back to school, then you have to check and see if there is some willingness on his part to listen, to unlearn some of the programming that he has. 

 13:20

If up to this point, you have the agreement, and I can't really tell if this is just how it works in your marriage. I wouldn't be surprised. It works that way in a lot of conservative religious marriages where the man has like ultimate say on the way resources are spent. 

 13:38

Asking him if he is willing to explore a partnership, like what would an actual partnership look like? Asking him if he is willing to entertain a role reversal, like what would it be like husband, if you came to me and said, I want to do this thing. 

 13:58

And I said, no. Does that feel like partnership to you? Is that what we want in our marriage? Like this, this actually is a really complex process that you're going through. And you can totally do it. 

 14:13

And it's going to feel, I think at times, like taking little steps. Always remembering, it is not your job to make them feel comfortable about your decisions. You get to have your own opinions, you get to change your mind, you get to try new things, you get to explore different lives. 

 14:36

And also you have the opportunity to maintain communication in a way that I think will really be helpful. I'm going to talk a little bit more about some other answers that might help this. But just remember that just because you leave the structure. 

 14:54

doesn't mean that the programming evaporates. You have to work on that as well in a relationship of love and respect and of boundaries and of you being who you want to be as you work with people who are willing to work with you on becoming something different, on having different parameters in your relationship. 

 15:18

Dear Sarah, you have told some funny Mormon stories in the past on different podcast episodes. I wonder if there is one story you could tell us about something funny that happened to you when you were a Mormon that you haven't shared before. 

 15:33

I thought of one. When the book Eat, Pray, Love came out, you don't even remember specifically where I saw it first. Maybe it was the bookstore and then the press tour. I was so pissed. I was so angry at the audacity of a book called Eat, Pray, Love, about a woman who just goes off on her own to find herself who leads her marriage and just goes off in search of her authentic self. 

 16:06

I mean, I was dripping with resentment for months. I would talk about that terrible book with girlfriends, with people, with my family, with people that I knew. It just about how ridiculous this woman was who felt like she had the audacity to go and find herself. 

 16:28

And I look back on it now because it kind of became like my personal crusade to discredit Elizabeth Gilbert. And it was really, it was just so much envy, right? It was so much jealousy that she felt like she deserved to go Eat, Pray, and Love her way into a new life. 

 16:51

But I'm telling you, I was like a one woman canceled. culture against that book, because it made me feel so upset that she got to do that and that I couldn't. So, aha, Liz Gilbert wins in the end. Next question is from Angie. 

 17:08

She wrote, I get a lot of satisfaction and joy from helping other people. It feels like it comes from a genuine place and not from a desire to impress someone or have someone be indebted to me. But I also know that my conditioning is to be good and perfect and put other people's needs up above my own. 

 17:25

So, sometimes when I help or give or sacrifice for someone else, I wonder if I truly feel good about it because it's what I wanted to do or if I feel good about it because I think I'm doing a good job and meeting the expectations that were given to me. 

 17:40

I don't feel resentment afterwards. So I think the point is coming from a genuine desire. But I still wonder, what's really genuinely me? And what part of me is conditioned to people, please? 

 17:52

Do you have any advice on how to tell the difference? And this is a fantastic question. And yes, I do. One of the things that is essential as we reconnect to our bodies is the information that is often under layers of programming. 

 18:13

So people pleasing comes all from the expectations, the needs, and the wants of other people that we mostly carry, if you will, in our minds, what they expect from us, what they want from us. But if you can imagine dropping down out of your mind and into your body, into your chest, into your arms and legs, your hands, your gut, there are other ways of knowing that only the body can tell us. 

 18:45

So I'll say off the bat, there is not an exact science to figuring out this question, like, what's really me and what is my programming? That is an age-old question that has, there's a lot of discussion about that. 

 19:00

But basically, here's how I tell the difference. First of all, I remind myself that pleasing someone else is only a choice if I have the choice to not please them. And I really feel in my body, does it feel like both pleasing them and not pleasing them are real choices for me here? 

 19:26

Because if it's not really a choice, if I'm feeling more pushed toward pleasing, then that's just something I want to notice. And I want to name it as part of my experience. Like, oh, I think about saying yes to this person's request, and that feels really good. And I think about saying no, and while technically I know that I could say no, that doesn't feel as accessible. It doesn't feel as easy. And then I sit with that feeling for a minute and try to better understand why it doesn't totally feel like a choice. 

 20:00

So that's the first thing. When you are making these decisions to please, does it actually feel like a choice not to please? Second of all, when you are feeling good about the thing that you've done, pleasing or meeting expectations, ask yourself what feels good about this? 

 20:20

Does it feel good that I think they're going to think good things about me, that they're going to say good things about me, that they have a good opinion of me? There's nothing wrong with that. We want people to think well of us. 

 20:31

That's just part of being human. But just notice that that's what feels good. Or does it feel good that I've made their life easier? That I have done something that helps them, you know, grow and move forward? 

 20:44

Really investigating why it feels good will give you, I think, some really valuable information. Lastly, I don't think people pleasing is wrong. I have said this before, the problem is not the people pleasing. 

 21:00

The problem is that we don't know how to not people please. Because in loving, connected relationships, friendships, where we care about each other, we want to do things that please the other person. 

 21:14

And often, we do those things at our own expense. But it has to really be a choice. And then I think investigating, like, what feels good, what specifically feels like the reward for doing the pleasing is going to give you some good information here. 

 21:32

Next question comes from Laura. Last week, I was very determined to make one small change that I had taken away from the amazing podcast episodes you released in January. That was episodes 93, 94, and 95. 

 21:46

Go listen to them if you haven't. I was very enthusiastic about my undertaking. I started the new week just to see that time and time again, I did not get the result I had pictured. By the middle of the week, I was sobbing and so disappointed. 

 21:59

I tried to stay kind to myself and look to find something small that I'd gotten out of it so far, but I just wasn't able to shake the feeling that this was taking too much energy, energy that I didn't have. 

 22:12

I felt super tired since. My question, should I keep trying to make these changes, even though I feel like it is draining all of my energy? Would I feel better if I just stopped trying? How do you evaluate when to cut your losses and when to find the energy and start over again? 

 22:30

Oh, Laura, I feel this. And I want to say that since the beginning of the year, since the election, we are living in a different world in the United States. We are living in a time when authoritarianism, autocracy, and a literal oligarchy are trying to take over the country that we live in, and they are doing it by unleashing an overwhelming amount of news and changes, and it is meant to feel destabilizing, 

 23:10

and like every news headline is a gut punch. The point is to disorient us and to make us feel like we are powerless to drain our energy if all our energy is taken up by just reading and seeing the deluge, the tsunami of changes, unlawful authoritarian changes that are happening in our country. 

 23:36

That's what I'm feeling. That's what a lot of my clients are feeling. And so the lack of energy that you're feeling, if it is tied to that for you, just know that you are not alone. Every day for so many of us who care deeply about what is going on now feels like a slog through mud with 10 pound weights attached to each of our ankles. 

 24:05

And I'm gonna answer a more specific question about what we can do politically. But first of all, I just wanna name that. Second of all, people pleasers and perfectionists are often programmed to believe that only big changes count. 

 24:23

So for example, if I want to be someone who works out every day, that is in fact my goal for this year. If I wanna become that person, it only counts when I am a person who works out every single day. 

 24:39

And by working out, I just mean moving y'all, I mean getting up and like shaking my booty to some music or going on a little walk or walking up and down the stairs in my house a couple of times. We're programmed to think that it only counts when we have achieved the end goal of I work out for an hour every day. 

 24:59

And we are not programmed to let little things count. So the other thing that I want you to check is that these things that you wanted to do, were they small? And I mean really small, like I drank a glass of water today. 

 25:15

I walked up and down the stairs once. In the beginning weeks of this goal for me, those are the things that... I have allowed to count. I drink the glass of water. It counts. I celebrate it. I feel good about myself. 

 25:34

I decide to walk up and down the stairs one time before going and laying in my bed and watching TV for the night to take my brain off of things. That counts. So those are the two pieces that I want you to use to decide. 

 25:48

Have you taken into account the deluge of really difficult information that we're dealing with every day? And number two, have you made the goals small enough? Has a part of your brain spoken up or like, that's too small. 

 26:03

That's not enough. You got to do more for it to count. That is often a problem because if you have made it impossible to succeed, I think that's when you need to cut your losses and go back to the drawing where you can be kinder to yourself. Because you have the energy that you have and finding a goal that actually pairs with your current level of energy would be the kindest, the most growth inducing path for you. Let's say that one day you are so tired and have no energy, giving yourself the chance to rest, that should be a goal. 

 26:48

Maybe walking around the block feels like too much. Maybe you go outside and you walk around the house. But giving yourself small doable goals sometimes is antithetical to people, pleasers and perfectionists because we want the whole finished product and that can actually get in the way. 

 27:07

Next question is a corollary to the last and it comes from Jessica. I'm so overwhelmed and sad every day when I watch the news. I'm very afraid for our government and institutions and for the vulnerable people who live in our country. 

 27:22

I feel helpless and like there is nothing I can do, but I also don't want to feel that way, help. Jessica, that describes how so many of us are feeling and as I just said, part of this administration's playbook is to make us feel overwhelmed, shell-shocked. 

 27:44

Like everything that they want to do is just inevitable and there's nothing we can do and that is very, very wrong. There are more of us who want stable systems, stable institutions, who want the rule of law, who want changes to the government to be made by following established constitutional practices than there are of them. 

 28:13

So that's the first thing that I want you to remember. There are more of us who want the American way of life to include the rule of law, to include. include the honoring of the three branches of government and the jobs that they independently do to monitor and check the power of the others. 

 28:32

So, secondly, women are programmed to think that they do not know and they need a leader. So, if any of you are feeling like, I don't know what to do. I need someone to lead me. I don't know what to do. 

 28:49

I need someone to tell me, just notice that. We don't need to shame or blame ourselves for it, but just notice that that is also part of the programming. Because if you have over half the population who doesn't feel like they have the knowledge or the smarts or the tools or the resources to do anything, we're just kind of waiting for someone else to tell us what to do. 

 29:09

That also plays into what this authoritarian government hopes we will believe because then we don't do anything. So, trust yourself. This is a time to trust that you know what matters to you and that you can find one thing that you can do. 

 29:31

If immigration really matters to you, what one thing could you do? Could you make a phone call? Could you learn about immigration rights? Could you help other people in that space who are affected by that issue learn their rights? 

 29:45

If it is the sacking of government institutions that provide aid? And you make phone calls. We have to be the active voices pointing these things out. And you have to do it in a way that works for you and for your nervous system. 

 30:03

But trust yourself that you can look at the information, you can find resources, you can find people who you can help in small ways and that it will matter. None of us are going to be able to do everything. 

 30:18

That's not the point. And that's how we actually burn out and become useless. But if every single one of us are doing the small and medium size and big things, if that's what we have resources and time for, to point out what's going wrong, to demand that our elected officials step in and to change and to follow the laws, if we protect the vulnerable people in our communities, it's going to be enough. 

 30:47

And we're going to be able to write this ship. This question also I've gotten from several people and it goes along with the last two. I am in a politically mixed family and I am getting some criticism for not wanting to spend time with my Trump loving family members. 

 31:06

I feel like I am well within my rights to set boundaries, but other people have told me that I am contributing to the problem by not hearing them out. What would you suggest? Okay, this is an issue right now because there has never been more divisiveness and poison in the public conversation around politics. 

 31:33

And we've gone through this before. In past decades, I think what is different now is the lengths to which this administration is willing to go to break the law. That's very different. But the difference in political opinion and how it divides families, that's happened before. 

 31:52

While the events that this government is bringing about in the political landscape, that's not normal. Difference in a family is. So the criticism that you are getting seems to be around the idea that you are not willing to hear other people out. 

 32:17

And what the parameters are for having conversations, especially when your sense is that the willingness to hear each other is not there. What's the point of a conversation where there is not some willingness to hear, at least hear, other people's experiences? 

 32:39

And so often, those who want to have boundaries and say, that's not a conversation that I want to have with you are the ones who are blamed for the problem, but that's not the problem. The problem is that there is such entrenchment in political ideology that people are not willing to consider something different. 

 33:02

And I fall into that as well. I am not willing to consider that Project 2025 is a good playbook for the United States and for American way of life. I'm not willing to consider that. And so I have a boundary around that, which is I just don't get into it with someone who is also unwilling to consider my point of view. 

 33:28

And that's okay. I am not responsible for the discomfort that other people feel around boundaries that I have for reasons that I like. So go through the reasons that you have for the boundaries that you have. 

 33:46

And if you like those reasons, all you have to do is state them and maintain them in a way that is consistent with who you want to be in the world. And other people get to deal with their own discomfort around those boundaries. 

 34:04

Because often what is missing is a willingness to really hear each other. And sometimes that's okay. This last question I got from nine. nine different women in nine different ways, conversations and DMs. 

 34:23

And I'm going to read what Aliyah put it into words just because it reflects all of the questions that I got around this subject. So Leah wrote, I'm having trouble talking about my feelings with my husband when it comes to patriarchy and feminism. 

 34:39

Every time I bring it up, he feels blamed. And all he does is try to tell me that he is not the one oppressing women. I want him to understand. And he just gets defensive. And it ends up going nowhere. 

 34:52

And we both feel frustrated. This is common. It's common because we each have our own programming. And the programming that many men get is that they have to be blameless or they should feel ashamed. 

 35:14

I will also say that it is my opinion that a lot of the rhetoric around male privilege, while it is true, it's not always helpful. Because for most people, understanding privilege is a process that best happens when they are open to understanding it. 

 35:37

And so often, people want to try and use wield privilege as a weapon to try to take other people down or out. And that doesn't feel good to them. Oftentimes, the culprit is shame. Because when you blame someone for characteristics that they don't feel like they can avoid, like being a man, being a white man, being a white man today in 2025, those are not things that they feel like they can control. 

 36:07

And so often, and I'm not saying this is right, I'm just saying it's normal, they go to feelings of shame, shame and guilt, like they're doing something wrong, or they're being blamed for something that they shouldn't be blamed for. 

 36:20

And instead of feeling shame, they go to anger instead. Anger feels a lot better than shame. And so for a lot of men who are angry, underneath that anger is shame, and worry that they are not good enough, or that they have contributed to this problem, or that people they love are experiencing the problems of patriarchy, and they don't know how to help, or they don't know what to do. 

 36:47

It's not a problem they can solve. I say that Leah, just because it is helpful in relationships that we want to keep, to do some legwork to understand how the other person feels. Now, this is often where women pipe up and they say, well, it's not fair, it's not fair that I have to be the one, in addition to everything else that I go through as a woman, it's not fair that I have to be the one to try and understand him. 

 37:14

I agree with you, I actually agree with you, it's not fair. And we can dig into the it's not fair camp, and just not have the conversations and wait till the other person feels like they have the resources to have the conversation. 

 37:29

That's one way of doing it, and it's not bad or wrong. It just has the effect that you would expect it to have, right? No conversations are happening. There is resentment and misunderstanding on both sides, it is not being addressed. 

 37:45

So another option is to recognize that it is unfair, but that sometimes what is more important than the unfairness is to deepen the vulnerability and connection in a relationship by having hard conversations. 

 38:02

Again, the doorway to vulnerability, to intimacy, to security, to increased connection in relationships is conflict, and learning to talk about things that feel prickly and tricky. So here's how I would suggest starting to have these conversations. 

 38:24

First of all, when you are not in the moment, I would script some words that you know, based on what you know about your husband, would feel meaningful to him, like, honey, I know that you want to understand me. 

 38:42

I know that I matter to you, and my experience matters to you. I know that this feels prickly to you. I know that having these conversations might feel a little topsy-turvy, but it's something I want to do with you. 

 39:00

I want us to better understand each other here. Also acknowledging how your husband might feel blamed, I think can help. It might sound like, sweetheart, I'm not blaming you. You didn't invent patriarchy. 

 39:18

You didn't have a say in whether or not you were programmed by patriarchy. I'm not blaming you. I'm asking you to listen, and I'm asking you to open up space to have a different conversation about this. 

 39:32

Is that something you're interested in doing? That last question is really important, because oftentimes we are trying to have conversations with people who are not interested in changing their opinion or point of view. 

 39:47

And that is something we want to know. I'm a fan of just asking, is this something you're interested in learning about or hearing a different perspective, understanding my experience? Because if the answer is no, that's going to help me make better decisions. 

 40:03

And if the answer is yes, then I can express gratitude for that willingness. And I can remind my husband that part of being willing is listening. Part of changing your perspective is being able to to have a different perspective because you've listened and heard someone who's experienced this differently. 

 40:25

Building on those skills of appreciation of sometimes just acknowledging, yeah, it's not fair, but I'm willing to do it because this relationship matters to me. Having conversations where you do some of the legwork ahead of time to decide how you want to say it, I think is really important. 

 40:46

Expressing love, expressing gratitude are just as important as expressing some of the pain and some of the the ways in which patriarchy has really fucked up our lives. I think if you're willing to take a few of the things that I have mentioned and approach your husband in a moment where emotions are not high, you have a better chance of opening up the space for more understanding. 

 41:15

Thank you so much for listening to this episode. Happy 100th to the ex-good girl and to all of you. Let's keep going.